Chris used to always make me a Christmas banner with the grumpy chef pic I posted many years ago !
It's Christmas Time...
- Thread starter GrauGeist
- Start date
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mikewint
Captain
Dave, "steal" is hardly the word to use as the Pagans were in the vast majority at the time. Early Christians could not afford to draw attention to themselves by celebrating when others were not, thus "Christian celebrations" were scheduled at the same time as the earlier Pagan celebrations.
The Indo-Persian sun god Mithra was worshiped many centuries before Christ. By 1500 BC Mithraism had made it to the Near East. In Persia the priests of Mithra were called the Magi (the root of MAGIC), referred to as Father, and were celebrate.
Mithra made its way into the Roman world bt way of the Roman Legions. Notably Pompey's campaigns in 70BC. Between 80 -120AD Mithraism was the dominant religion in Rome. By the 3rd & 4th centuries it had spread through India and Scotland and in the 5th century the emperor Julian renounced Christianity in favor of Mithraism.
It is VERY interesting to note that:
The Indo-Persian sun god Mithra was worshiped many centuries before Christ. By 1500 BC Mithraism had made it to the Near East. In Persia the priests of Mithra were called the Magi (the root of MAGIC), referred to as Father, and were celebrate.
Mithra made its way into the Roman world bt way of the Roman Legions. Notably Pompey's campaigns in 70BC. Between 80 -120AD Mithraism was the dominant religion in Rome. By the 3rd & 4th centuries it had spread through India and Scotland and in the 5th century the emperor Julian renounced Christianity in favor of Mithraism.
It is VERY interesting to note that:
- Mithra was born on December 25th of the virgin Anahita.
- The babe was wrapped in swaddling clothes, placed in a manger and attended by shepherds.
- He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
- He had 12 companions or "disciples."
- He performed miracles.
- As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.He ascended to heaven.
- Mithra was viewed as the Good Shepherd, the "Way, the Truth and the Light," the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah.
- Mithra is omniscient, as he "hears all, sees all, knows all: none can deceive him."
- He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.
- His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
- His religion had a eucharist or "Lord's Supper."
- Mithra "sets his marks on the foreheads of his soldiers."
- Mithraism emphasized baptism.
buffnut453
Captain
Interesting, Mike, although Jesus celebrated the Sabbath on Saturday not Sunday. Also, there's nothing in your summary of Mithra regarding resurrection. To be honest, it's hardly surprising that there are similarities between pagan forms of worship and the Judeo-Christian tradition. The Old Testament is replete with prophecies of the coming Saviour, some of which overlap with Mithra and some don't. It shouldn't come as a surprise that there are similarities if traditions had a common source or if there was heavy influence between traditions.
mikewint
Captain
Naturally since Yeshua ben yosef was a Jew.
Resurrection either in spirit or flesh or both combined is also not a new idea
The concept of resurrection is found in the writings of some ancient non-Abrahamic religions in the Middle East. Egyptian and Canaanite writings allude to dying and rising gods such as Osiris and Baal.
In ancient Greek religion a number of men and women were made physically immortal as they were resurrected from the dead.
Asclepius was killed by Zeus, only to be resurrected and transformed into a major deity. Achilles, after being killed, was snatched from his funeral pyre by his divine mother Thetis and resurrected and brought to an immortal existence.
Memnon, who was killed by Achilles, seems to have received a similar fate.
Alcmene, Castor, Heracles, and Melicertes, were also among the figures sometimes considered to have been resurrected to physical immortality.
There are three explicit examples in the Hebrew Bible of people being resurrected from the dead:
1. The prophet Elijah prays and God raises a young boy from death
2. Elisha raises the son of the Shunammite woman
3.A dead man's body that was thrown into the dead Elisha's tomb is resurrected when the body touches Elisha's bones.
The concept of resurrection of the physical body is found in 2 Maccabees
Resurrection of the dead also appears in detail in the extra-canonical books of Enoch
In ancient Judaism there is little or no clear reference either to immortality or to resurrection from the dead in the Dead Sea scrolls texts.
The New Testament claims that the Pharisees believed in the resurrection, but does not specify whether this included the flesh or not. According to Josephus, who himself was a Pharisee, the Pharisees held that only the soul was immortal and the souls of good people will be reincarnated and "pass into other bodies," while "the souls of the wicked will suffer eternal punishment."
Paul, who also was a Pharisee, said that at the resurrection what is "sown as a natural body is raised a spiritual body."
Christianity retains what the New Testament itself claims was this Pharisaic belief in the afterlife and Resurrection of the Dead. This belief was rejected by the Sadducees. It became dominant within Early Christianity and already in the Gospels of Luke and John included an insistence on the resurrection of the flesh. This was later rejected by gnostic teachings, which instead continued the Pauline insistence that flesh and bones had no place in heaven. Most modern Christian churches continue to uphold the belief that there will be a final Resurrection of the Dead.
Belief in the Resurrection of the Dead, and Jesus's role as judge, is codified in the Apostles' Creed, which is the fundamental creed of Christian baptismal faith. The Book of Revelation also makes many references about the Day of Judgment when the dead will be raised up.
Belief in the "Day of Resurrection", is also crucial for Muslims. They believe the time of Qiyāmah is preordained by God but unknown to man. The trials and tribulations preceding and during the Qiyāmah are described in the Qur'an and the hadith, and also in the commentaries of scholars. The Qur'an emphasizes bodily resurrection, a break from the pre-Islamic Arabian understanding of death.
Resurrection either in spirit or flesh or both combined is also not a new idea
The concept of resurrection is found in the writings of some ancient non-Abrahamic religions in the Middle East. Egyptian and Canaanite writings allude to dying and rising gods such as Osiris and Baal.
In ancient Greek religion a number of men and women were made physically immortal as they were resurrected from the dead.
Asclepius was killed by Zeus, only to be resurrected and transformed into a major deity. Achilles, after being killed, was snatched from his funeral pyre by his divine mother Thetis and resurrected and brought to an immortal existence.
Memnon, who was killed by Achilles, seems to have received a similar fate.
Alcmene, Castor, Heracles, and Melicertes, were also among the figures sometimes considered to have been resurrected to physical immortality.
There are three explicit examples in the Hebrew Bible of people being resurrected from the dead:
1. The prophet Elijah prays and God raises a young boy from death
2. Elisha raises the son of the Shunammite woman
3.A dead man's body that was thrown into the dead Elisha's tomb is resurrected when the body touches Elisha's bones.
The concept of resurrection of the physical body is found in 2 Maccabees
Resurrection of the dead also appears in detail in the extra-canonical books of Enoch
In ancient Judaism there is little or no clear reference either to immortality or to resurrection from the dead in the Dead Sea scrolls texts.
The New Testament claims that the Pharisees believed in the resurrection, but does not specify whether this included the flesh or not. According to Josephus, who himself was a Pharisee, the Pharisees held that only the soul was immortal and the souls of good people will be reincarnated and "pass into other bodies," while "the souls of the wicked will suffer eternal punishment."
Paul, who also was a Pharisee, said that at the resurrection what is "sown as a natural body is raised a spiritual body."
Christianity retains what the New Testament itself claims was this Pharisaic belief in the afterlife and Resurrection of the Dead. This belief was rejected by the Sadducees. It became dominant within Early Christianity and already in the Gospels of Luke and John included an insistence on the resurrection of the flesh. This was later rejected by gnostic teachings, which instead continued the Pauline insistence that flesh and bones had no place in heaven. Most modern Christian churches continue to uphold the belief that there will be a final Resurrection of the Dead.
Belief in the Resurrection of the Dead, and Jesus's role as judge, is codified in the Apostles' Creed, which is the fundamental creed of Christian baptismal faith. The Book of Revelation also makes many references about the Day of Judgment when the dead will be raised up.
Belief in the "Day of Resurrection", is also crucial for Muslims. They believe the time of Qiyāmah is preordained by God but unknown to man. The trials and tribulations preceding and during the Qiyāmah are described in the Qur'an and the hadith, and also in the commentaries of scholars. The Qur'an emphasizes bodily resurrection, a break from the pre-Islamic Arabian understanding of death.
buffnut453
Captain
Interesting you say that in ancient Judaism there is little or no clear reference either to immortality or to resurrection from the dead. I can find numerous OT scriptures that point to exactly that occurrence (Job 19:26, Isaiah 25:8 and 26:19, Ezekiel 37:12, Daniel 12:2, Hosea 13:14...and probably others that are less direct). Bottom line is that many religions have a great many similarities and the world would be a much better place if people would let others worship who or what they want to (or nothing, if that's their 'druthers) rather than trying to coerce or force others into their religious tradition. That's not to say we can't have discussions like the last few posts, which I've really enjoyed...but nobody's trying to convince anyone that their correct, just sharing knowledge and information.
mikewint
Captain
I could not agree with you more. The historical record is fragmentary at best and as belief systems changed much that was contradictory was destroyed or rejected. Back to the OT:
Ah yes, I love the Old Testament neat stuff like poor old Lot's wife being turned into a pillar of salt (kinda harsh) and while we're discussing Lot he offers his two virgin daughters to be gang raped by a mob to protect two men who are actually angels (do angels need protection?) and his drunken sex with them after fleeing Sodom (well Sodom was destroyed and Lot was the only man left). 42 boys ripped to shreds by two bears for making fun of Elisha's bald head (now that's the way to cure juvenile delinquents). But I digress.
The Old Testament is based primarily upon the Hebrew Bible, a collection of religious writings by ancient Israelites. However the Old Testament canon varies between Christian Churches. Protestants have a version with 39 books. Catholics have a version with 46 books, and Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox Churches choose the Old Testament version with 49 books.
These consists of many distinct books written, compiled, and edited by various authors over a period of centuries. It is not entirely clear at what point the parameters of the Hebrew Bible became fixed. Some feel that the canon of the Hebrew Bible was established by about the 3rd century BC while others suggest later dates.
In broad general terms Christians traditionally divide the Old Testament into four sections:
1. Pentateuch (Torah)
2. The history books telling the history of the Israelites
3. The poetic and "Wisdom" books dealing, in various forms, with questions of good and evil in the world
4. The books of the biblical prophets.
The disputed books, included in one canon but not in others, are often called the Biblical apocrypha, a term that is sometimes used specifically to describe the books in the Catholic and Orthodox canons that are absent from the Jewish Masoretic Text and most modern Protestant Bibles. Catholics, following the Canon of Trent (1546), describe these books as deuterocanonical, while Greek Orthodox Christians, following the Synod of Jerusalem (1672), use the traditional name of anagignoskomena, meaning "that which is to be read." They are present in a few historic Protestant versions; the German Luther Bible included such books, as did the English 1611 King James Version.
The Old Testament concept of human beings consisted of a physical body made of flesh (basar), a spirit (ruah), and a soul (nephesh). Death, in Hebrew thought involved all three of these entities. The physical body is made of dust and returns to the dust after death (Genesis 2:7; 3:19).
It was also believed that at death the spirit (or breath) is withdrawn (Psalm 104:29; Ecclesiastes 12:7), and the soul (nephesh) was sent to sheol or the place of the dead (Psalm 16:10).
Thus, in the Old Testament death is viewed as the end of physical life but not the termination of existence. The dead, though separated from this life, continued to exist but this is a spirit existence and not a resurrection to a living body .
If you read my post again you will see that I did mention the three clear Old Testament examples of BODY resurrections.
Ah yes, I love the Old Testament neat stuff like poor old Lot's wife being turned into a pillar of salt (kinda harsh) and while we're discussing Lot he offers his two virgin daughters to be gang raped by a mob to protect two men who are actually angels (do angels need protection?) and his drunken sex with them after fleeing Sodom (well Sodom was destroyed and Lot was the only man left). 42 boys ripped to shreds by two bears for making fun of Elisha's bald head (now that's the way to cure juvenile delinquents). But I digress.
The Old Testament is based primarily upon the Hebrew Bible, a collection of religious writings by ancient Israelites. However the Old Testament canon varies between Christian Churches. Protestants have a version with 39 books. Catholics have a version with 46 books, and Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox Churches choose the Old Testament version with 49 books.
These consists of many distinct books written, compiled, and edited by various authors over a period of centuries. It is not entirely clear at what point the parameters of the Hebrew Bible became fixed. Some feel that the canon of the Hebrew Bible was established by about the 3rd century BC while others suggest later dates.
In broad general terms Christians traditionally divide the Old Testament into four sections:
1. Pentateuch (Torah)
2. The history books telling the history of the Israelites
3. The poetic and "Wisdom" books dealing, in various forms, with questions of good and evil in the world
4. The books of the biblical prophets.
The disputed books, included in one canon but not in others, are often called the Biblical apocrypha, a term that is sometimes used specifically to describe the books in the Catholic and Orthodox canons that are absent from the Jewish Masoretic Text and most modern Protestant Bibles. Catholics, following the Canon of Trent (1546), describe these books as deuterocanonical, while Greek Orthodox Christians, following the Synod of Jerusalem (1672), use the traditional name of anagignoskomena, meaning "that which is to be read." They are present in a few historic Protestant versions; the German Luther Bible included such books, as did the English 1611 King James Version.
The Old Testament concept of human beings consisted of a physical body made of flesh (basar), a spirit (ruah), and a soul (nephesh). Death, in Hebrew thought involved all three of these entities. The physical body is made of dust and returns to the dust after death (Genesis 2:7; 3:19).
It was also believed that at death the spirit (or breath) is withdrawn (Psalm 104:29; Ecclesiastes 12:7), and the soul (nephesh) was sent to sheol or the place of the dead (Psalm 16:10).
Thus, in the Old Testament death is viewed as the end of physical life but not the termination of existence. The dead, though separated from this life, continued to exist but this is a spirit existence and not a resurrection to a living body .
If you read my post again you will see that I did mention the three clear Old Testament examples of BODY resurrections.
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YOU ############ and #### AND #####!And so I see that I am perhaps one of the last to use a Christmas sig. Oh, how the times have changed.
And on another note, I remember how much Marcel loved the old Christmas banner, so I'll post it here just for his pleasure!
View attachment 360757
You're welcome!
How dare you to remember me to this #####!
On another note.... Merry Christmas Dave and everybody else reading this
at6
1st Sergeant
MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
fubar57
General
ALRIGHT!!!!! 5 more months of Christmas Banner
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
God bless you all and may you and your loved ones be able
to unite and give thanks for the wonderful blessings the Lord
has given you throughout this past year. I wish you all double
blessings this coming year.
I am very thankful to the Lord. I also like to have fun. So on
that note let the fun begin:
Santa Claus Is Back in Town with Kurt Russell The Christmas Chronicles (2018)
to unite and give thanks for the wonderful blessings the Lord
has given you throughout this past year. I wish you all double
blessings this coming year.
I am very thankful to the Lord. I also like to have fun. So on
that note let the fun begin:
Santa Claus Is Back in Town with Kurt Russell The Christmas Chronicles (2018)
Only 5, come on now. It'll be at least 12...
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
….and the clock is ticking. We are on Day 3, everybody place your bets.
mikewint
Captain
Well now it is important to recall that Dec 25, Christmas Day is just one day of the Christmas season.
The four weeks preceding Christmas are collectively known as Advent, which begins four Sundays before Christmas and ends on December 24.
The true Christmas season actually starts on Christmas Day itself. December 25 marks the official start of the 12 days of Christmas. These 12 days in Christian theology marks the span between the birth of Christ and the coming of the Magi, the three wise men. It begins on December 25 (Christmas Day) and runs through January 6 (the Epiphany, sometimes also called Three Kings' Day).
In addition, The Indo-Persian sun god Mithra was worshiped many centuries before Christ. By 1500 BC Mithraism had made it to the Near East. In Persia the priests of Mithra were called the Magi (the root of MAGIC), they were referred to as Father, and were celebrate.
The four weeks preceding Christmas are collectively known as Advent, which begins four Sundays before Christmas and ends on December 24.
The true Christmas season actually starts on Christmas Day itself. December 25 marks the official start of the 12 days of Christmas. These 12 days in Christian theology marks the span between the birth of Christ and the coming of the Magi, the three wise men. It begins on December 25 (Christmas Day) and runs through January 6 (the Epiphany, sometimes also called Three Kings' Day).
In addition, The Indo-Persian sun god Mithra was worshiped many centuries before Christ. By 1500 BC Mithraism had made it to the Near East. In Persia the priests of Mithra were called the Magi (the root of MAGIC), they were referred to as Father, and were celebrate.
