Japanese doing things different in for before and during ww2?

[tomo pauk]

Let's say that Japanese take a good and hard look at what Europeans (and especially Germans) were doing with regard to not just aircraft-related technology, but also with regard to mass production of military hardware. Japanese start their 'investigation' once the Tripartite pact is signed, 27th September 1940, and start employing the knowledge gained by some time Spring of 1941 where possible.

To get the ball rolling, I'd propose a ruthless reduction of aircraft types slated for series production, ASAP, along with requirement for protection for crew and fuel tanks for any new A/C design.

edit: time of interest is now from 1937 on; thread is about IJA and IJN military aircraft and whatever is related to that

 

[tomo pauk]

To move further on.
I'd avoid 2-engined fighters, designed as such; here this means cancelation of the Ki-45. Kawasaki already makes Ha 25 (Army name for Sakae), so have them make Ki 43 instead.
(whole Ki-43 program needs quick introduction of protection, and augmentation of armament to at least 2 HMGs + 2 LMGs, if not 4 HMGs)
This might allow Nakajima to phase out the Ki-27 before 1942 (historically, they were still producing it in 1942, along with Ki-43 and Ki-44).
IMO, the next-gen Army fighter should look like Ki-61 with Ha-41/-109 engine in the nose, 2 cannons (even if those are the slow-firing Ho-3), 2 HMGs - basically, the Ki-100 lookalike.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Japanese take note of the British (and Germany's) use of land-based and shipborne radar, and by early 1941:

1) Purchase radar kits and training from the Germans
2) Decide to become leaders in radar-directed carrier aviation, putting CIC (combat info centres) in all carriers
3) Enact new doctrine for Kidō Butai aviators, focused on disciplined, radio-guided formations and direction from CIC (as opposed to everyman for himself samurais)

By Coral Sea, all IJN carriers have radar and expertise in aircraft detection and direction. They still don't understand good damage control and their carriers are still made of eggshells, but they'll be no surprises at Midway, for example.

 

[tomo pauk]

I could not agree more - radar-assisted C3 system was such a force-multiplier.

Further on the question of aircraft. IJN might try to axe even more of their designs. Need a fighter that can climb even better then Zero ASAP? Install a better engine on the Zero, probably the Kinsei (don't wait until 1945). Kinsei 50's series of mid/late 42 should be doing around 20% more power than the Sakae of the same time.
Start thinking about protection for pilot/crew and fuel.
Next-generation naval fighter is also required. Between what Kawainshi and Mitsubishi can offer there should be a winner, to be made by both companies.

That big stream of floatplane aircraft is a waste of resources. Need a two-seater with floats? Equip the Val with them. Need a floatplane fighter? Outfit an existing fighter design with floats, as with Zero/Rufe..

All of this should bring the numbers of usable aircraft to higher levels than it was the case historically, improve capabilities and prevent burning through the pool of experienced pilots like they will come out of fashion.

 

[Admiral Beez]

It is odd that the IJAF and land-based IJNAS units kept getting new single-engine fighters:

Nakajima Ki-43 - introduced 1941
Nakajima Ki-44 - intro 1942
Mitsubishi J2M - intro 1942
Kawasaki Ki-61 - intro 1942
Kawanishi N1K - intro 1943
Nakajima Ki-84 - intro 1944
Kawasaki Ki-100 - intro 1945

But for some reason the premier aviation service of Japan, its coveted Kidō Butai had to make due with the same fighter it first flew in April 1939 and introduced in July 1940. Why wasn't the IJN seen as deserving of some of resources that went to the six successors of the Ki-43? Imagine Britain's FAA fielding the Fairey Fulmar or the USN the Wildcat, with updates as their sole fleet fighter until war's end.

IMO, the Ki-44 should have been a dual type for both air arms, like the McDonald Douglas Phantom II. In fairness, the Ki-44 wasn't much better than the A6M or the Ki-43, but it would bring efficiencies and force the two bickering air arms to cooperate.

 

[tomo pauk]

It is odd that the IJAF and land-based IJNAS units kept getting new single-engine fighters:

Nakajima Ki-43 - introduced 1941
Nakajima Ki-44 - intro 1942
Mitsubishi J2M - intro 1942
Kawasaki Ki-61 - intro 1942
Kawanishi N1K - intro 1943
Nakajima Ki-84 - intro 1944
Kawasaki Ki-100 - intro 1945

But for some reason the premier aviation service of Japan, its coveted Kidō Butai had to make due with the same fighter it first flew in April 1939 and introduced in July 1940. Why wasn't the IJN seen as deserving of some of resources that went to the six successors of the Ki-43? Imagine Britain's FAA fielding the Fairey Fulmar or the USN the Wildcat, with updates as their sole fleet fighter until war's end.

All of the he lower 6 types were not succesors of the Ki-43. The Ki-43 was suceeded by Ki-44 and Ki-61, or at least that was the idea - eventually, the Ki-44 was phased out before 1945 in production. Ki-100 was basically re-engined Ki 61, not a brand new type.
But yes, the IJN dropped the ball with heir to the Zero, or at least for the Zero's central role, that of carrier-based all-around fighter. They tried to solve each task and each problem with a new type of aircraft, that played havoc not just wit next-gen CV fighter, but also with production numbers of other A/C. For example, Aichi was making 4 aircraft types in 1943 in same factory, while infuence of Kawainshi's floatplane A/C (Rex, Norm) on the ww2 battles was close to nothing, however they wasted years in making them.

IMO, the Ki-44 should have been a dual type for both air arms, like the McDonald Douglas Phantom II. In fairness, the Ki-44 wasn't much better than the A6M or the Ki-43, but it would bring efficiencies and force the two bickering air arms to cooperate.

Problem with Ki-44 for IJN services, as-is, is twofold - wing loading is probably over the top for use on carriers, and small size meant small tanks for it's relatively powerful engine thus resulting in small range/radius.
Ki-44 was faster than either of the Ki-43 or A6M, better rolled, dived much better, and it was not that fragile. Firepower was better than Ki-43 (granted, this is not much of an acomplishment).

 

[Admiral Beez]

All of the he [sic] lower 6 types were not succesors of the Ki-43. The Ki-43 was suceeded by Ki-44 and Ki-61,.

To be succeeded is the very definition of successor.

 

[tomo pauk]

To be succeeded is the very definition of successor.

My sentence was very clumsy indeed. Let me rephrase:
Not all of the 6 types listed after the Ki-43 were it's successors.

 

[Admiral Beez]

A big what'if for Japan would be finding a face-saving means to withdraw to the pre-1937 borders with China. That would end the US sanctions and give Japan time to breath. In that time Japan can either build up its military, industrial capacity and oil stocks in preparation for attacking DEI, FIC, Malaya and perhaps Pearl Harbour in 1941. Or, Japan can wait to see how the ETO war is going, which by summer 1942 will appear to be going badly for the Germans, and hold off going to war at all....

Or join your traditional British allies! The Kidō Butai arrives in Britain end 1942.

 

[Kevin J]

A big what'if for Japan would be finding a face-saving means to withdraw to the pre-1937 borders with China. That would end the US sanctions and give Japan time to breath. In that time Japan can either build up its military, industrial capacity and oil stocks in preparation for attacking DEI, FIC, Malaya and perhaps Pearl Harbour in 1941. Or, Japan can wait to see how the ETO war is going, which by summer 1942 will appear to be going badly for the Germans, and hold off going to war at all....

Or join your traditional British allies! The Kidō Butai arrives in Britain end 1942.

Okay, so we need atomic bombs earlier.

 

[Kevin J]

A big what'if for Japan would be finding a face-saving means to withdraw to the pre-1937 borders with China. That would end the US sanctions and give Japan time to breath. In that time Japan can either build up its military, industrial capacity and oil stocks in preparation for attacking DEI, FIC, Malaya and perhaps Pearl Harbour in 1941. Or, Japan can wait to see how the ETO war is going, which by summer 1942 will appear to be going badly for the Germans, and hold off going to war at all....

Or join your traditional British allies! The Kidō Butai arrives in Britain end 1942.

You mean an Anglo-Japanese invasion of China to rid it of the KMT.

 

[Shortround6]

Or join your traditional British allies! The Kidō Butai arrives in Britain end 1942.

to do what? suck up British oil fuel?

Without the Japanese distracting the British for all of 1942 North Africa wouldn't have lasted as long as it did. Italy might already be invaded.

A6M3s vs 109Gs and Fw 190s might not have gone well.

 

[Admiral Beez]

to do what? suck up British oil fuel?

As long as they're paying for the oil, Britain, with Middle Eastern supplies more secure will be glad to sell it.

Without the Japanese distracting the British for all of 1942 North Africa wouldn't have lasted as long as it did. Italy might already be invaded.

How do you invade Italy without US involvement? IDK.

Perhaps I've overstepped by suggesting the IJN arriving in British home waters, but without US participation in the war, and France fallen, Britain will welcome the IJN in the Mediterranean and Arabian Seas to keep North Africa and the Middle East clear.

 

[Shortround6]

Without British loses in the Far East in 1942 the British are much better placed to deal with the Italians and Germans in North Africa. British need fewer escorts in the Indian ocean, etc. Fewer troops in Burma. US involvement is problematical. US was doing a lot in 1940-41 like escorting british convoys almost 1/2 way across the Atlantic in 1941. Would the US have stayed out of the war all through 1942?

 

[Peter Gunn]

The Japanese might be better placed to take a long hard look at the disparity between their economy/natural resources/industry and the United States.

Perhaps cooler, less prejudicial heads could prevail and prevent the national suicide they seemed hell bent on committing.

Failing that, ramping up their aviation industry and laying down more carriers sooner with commissionings scheduled a lot earlier. I think it was Shattered Sword that gave production numbers for the Japanese aviation industry and they were pathetic, and that's putting it kindly.

 

[Admiral Beez]

US involvement is problematical. US was doing a lot in 1940-41 like escorting british convoys almost 1/2 way across the Atlantic in 1941. Would the US have stayed out of the war all through 1942?

The Germans will have to begin sinking US escorted convoys once the Lend Lease starts up to Russia. So, Germany declares war on USA by winter 42/43 with Stalingrad going poorly, if not before.

 

[cherry blossom]

Without considering political changes, let's look at ways of making the two Japanese air forces more effective, mostly by trying to improve aero-engines and their installations.

A possible point of divergence is the voyage of the raider Komet German auxiliary cruiser Komet - Wikipedia. Komet left Germany on 3rd July 1940 and arrived in Japan by October. Meanwhile in Germany the Fw 190 v5 had flown with the BMW 801 in April 1940. The installation of the engine in the Fw 190 was superior to that of any other contemporary fighter with the possible exception of the slightly later F4U flight august | pdf archive | flight pdf | 1942 | 1686 | Flight Archive and historically examination of a Fw 190 A5 shipped to Japan in 1943 helped and inspired the installation of the Kinsei/Ha-112 in the D4Y4, Ki-100 and A6M8 (the Fw 190 may have also influenced the Hawker Fury and Grumman Bearcat). Clearly, there wasn't a Fw 190 prototype available to load onto the Komet but ideally enough drawings and photographs can be sent that the whole system of baffles can be rebuilt in Japan.

We know that the IJN had pre-war contact with Focke Wulf over the Fw 200, so we just have to make the contact closer and bring in BMW. There is another advantage of buying information from BMW in that Japan might be able to learn how to manufacture a direct fuel injection system if they can get a licence from Friedrich Deckel BMW 801 Fuel Injection Pump (they might even get a licence for the Kommandogerät as well).

The story of direct fuel injection in Japan is interesting. Both the IJA and the IJN separately bought licences to manufacture the DB 601 Aa. However, Bosch refused to give any information on how to manufacture the fuel injector. Both Kawasaki, for IJA, and Mitsubishi, for the IJN, started to build reverse engineered copies. However, both companies had problems and Mitsubishi could only produce a limited number of the Kinsei 60 series engines over 1942-3 because injector manufacture was a skilled process rather than a mass production task and thus the Ki-46 II was kept in production in parallel with the Ki-46 III (for example).

Thus if Mitsubishi gets a licence from Friedrich Deckel and Jiro Horikoshi can look at a mock up of a Fw 190, both in 1940, we might have an A6M8 in production by 1942 and perhaps the Ki-100 at the same time as the Ki-61.

At a slight tangent, closer contact between Focke Wulf and the IJN before WW2 might persuade the IJN to buy a licence for the Fw 187. The justification in 1938 would be as cover as a land based escort if the A6M failed and as an interceptor with four Type 99 cannons to defend targets beyond reach of enemy fighters (the IJN was considering a heavily armed G4M, so they might have wanted a countermeasure). One advantage would be the release of Jiro Horikoshi from his work on J2M to produce a timely A7M. Another might be freeing some Nakajima's staff from designing the J1N although if information on radar arrives those can perhaps design a night fighter.

The J1N was actually used by the IJN for reconnaissance but the correct aircraft for that role was the Army's Ki-46, especially if the Ki-46 III arrives sooner.

 

[tomo pauk]

The whole V12 excursion by Kawasaki and Aichi was probably not worth it, especially what Aichi did. Problems wit crankshafts run amok, especially once the two companies tried to go to 2600 rpm and above.
I'd suggest that Kawasaki continues making Sakae (Ha 25 etc, as it was called by Army) in ever increasing numbers, so Nakajima can do the Ha-41 and 109 line of engines in greater volume, and later to go with Homare. For Aichi - have them make Kinsei under licence, they were producing radials under licence already. Forget the DB 601 dream all together, for both companies.

 

[tomo pauk]

Japanese situation with big, 2-engined bombers ('heavy bombers' in their classification) was no bed of roses either. Their types mostly lacked payload and protection, while offering good range and decent speed.
So I'd start the overhaul from small-ish 2-engined types, with something size of Ki-45/102/46, with half-decent bomb-bay, powered by the Sakae at 1st, later swhitch to Kinsei. Make also a LR recon from it.

 

[cherry blossom]

The whole V12 excursion by Kawasaki and Aichi was probably not worth it, ....snip ....

I sort of agree. Buying the licence twice, not learning how to make the fuel injector and not getting an agreement to be informed about new developments was certainly very foolish. There is an article, Mercedes-Benz DB-601A aircraft engine (design features and performance characteristics) by Raymond W. Young MERCEDES-BENZ DB-601A AIRCRAFT ENGINE (Design Features and Performance Characteristics) on JSTOR, which describes the sort of tear down that the Japanese should have made to ensure that they had the metallurgy to build a copy. Apparently the crankshaft pin of the Ha-40 was not properly hardened.

When a single D4Y1 was first used at Midway in June 1942, Daimler Benz had replaced the DB 601 A and Aa in production first by the DB 601N (in combat around October 1940), then by the DB 601 E (in service in the Bf 109F4 from May 1941) and finally by the DB 605 A (the Bf 109G was delivered to the Luftwaffe from March 1942 although there were problems with oil delaying combat use). The Ki-61 was first used in combat in 1943 (a prototype attempted to intercept the Doolittle Raid) with the same power as a Bf 109E of the Battles of France and Britain.

However, if we are into fantasy, a Ki-61 powered by a DB 605A and with a radiator designed following the principles first suggested by Junkers (and used in Bf 109F) but called the Meredith Effect in Britain and the USA might be interesting. For late war, we could have a DB 605 D with a radiator copied from a P-51 (we know that a Spitfire V flew well with a DB 605, so the radiator should work).

Also note that historically the DB 601 excursion introduced fuel injection for aero-engines to Japan (diesel is slightly different).