Japanese perspective
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parsifal
Colonel
On 12 December 1936 a deeply disgruntled Zhang Xueliang (a KMT warlord who had been responsible for the loss of Manchuria, and subsequently sent on a "suicide mission" to destroy the new CCCP bases in Yenan, with more than 25% of available trained manpower in the KMT) was very disgruntled about the suicideal nature of his mission. Rather than complete his mission as ordered, he decided to kidnap Chiang Kai-shek in Xi'an, hoping to force an end to the conflict between KMT and CCP. To secure the release of Chiang, the Kuomintang agreed to a temporary end to the Chinese Civil War and, on 24 December, the creation of a United Front between the CCP and KMT against Japan was put into effect. The alliance having salutary effects for the beleaguered CCP, they agreed to form the New Fourth Army and the 8th Route Army and place them under the nominal control of the National Revolutionary Army. The CCP's Red Army fought with KMT forces during the Battle of Taiyuan, and the high point of their cooperation came in 1938 during the Battle of Wuhan.
Despite Japan's steady territorial gains in northern China, the coastal regions, and the rich Yangtze River Valley in central China, the distrust between the KMT and CCCP was scarcely veiled. The uneasy alliance began to break down by late 1938, partially due to the Communists' aggressive efforts to expand their military strength by absorbing Chinese guerrilla forces behind Japanese lines. Chinese militia who refused to switch their allegiance were often labelled "collaborators" and attacked by CCP forces. For example, the Red Army led by He Long attacked and wiped out a brigade of Chinese militia led by Zhang Yin-wu in Hebei in June, 1939 all the while with the Japanese threat still very much alive and well. Starting in 1940, open conflict between Nationalists and Communists became more frequent in the occupied areas outside of Japanese control, culminating in the New Fourth Army Incident in January 1941.
After 1940, the Second United Front completely broke down and Chinese Communists leader Mao Zedong outlined the preliminary plan for the CCP's eventual seizure of power from Chiang Kai-shek. Mao began his final push for consolidation of CCP power under his authority, and his teachings became the central tenets of the CCP doctrine that came to be formalized as "Mao Zedong Thought". The communists also began to focus most of their energy on building up their sphere of influence wherever opportunities were presented, mainly through rural mass organizations, administrative, land and tax reform measures favoring poor peasants; while the Nationalists attempted to neutralize the spread of Communist influence by military blockade of areas controlled by CCP and fighting the Japanese at the same time. Both sides continued only sporadically to prosecute the war aftger the entry of the west to the war. The communnists were again obligated to recommencde a much wider scale of operations after the Soviets ordered them to do so as part of the Soviet offensive in 1945.
For a pretty good 1 page summary on the Chinese military capabilities and limits, I found this:
http://ww2-weapons.com/Orders-of-battle/China/Forces-1939.htm
and this
http://www.niehorster.orbat.com/018_china/41_cha-00-000.htm
Despite Japan's steady territorial gains in northern China, the coastal regions, and the rich Yangtze River Valley in central China, the distrust between the KMT and CCCP was scarcely veiled. The uneasy alliance began to break down by late 1938, partially due to the Communists' aggressive efforts to expand their military strength by absorbing Chinese guerrilla forces behind Japanese lines. Chinese militia who refused to switch their allegiance were often labelled "collaborators" and attacked by CCP forces. For example, the Red Army led by He Long attacked and wiped out a brigade of Chinese militia led by Zhang Yin-wu in Hebei in June, 1939 all the while with the Japanese threat still very much alive and well. Starting in 1940, open conflict between Nationalists and Communists became more frequent in the occupied areas outside of Japanese control, culminating in the New Fourth Army Incident in January 1941.
After 1940, the Second United Front completely broke down and Chinese Communists leader Mao Zedong outlined the preliminary plan for the CCP's eventual seizure of power from Chiang Kai-shek. Mao began his final push for consolidation of CCP power under his authority, and his teachings became the central tenets of the CCP doctrine that came to be formalized as "Mao Zedong Thought". The communists also began to focus most of their energy on building up their sphere of influence wherever opportunities were presented, mainly through rural mass organizations, administrative, land and tax reform measures favoring poor peasants; while the Nationalists attempted to neutralize the spread of Communist influence by military blockade of areas controlled by CCP and fighting the Japanese at the same time. Both sides continued only sporadically to prosecute the war aftger the entry of the west to the war. The communnists were again obligated to recommencde a much wider scale of operations after the Soviets ordered them to do so as part of the Soviet offensive in 1945.
For a pretty good 1 page summary on the Chinese military capabilities and limits, I found this:
http://ww2-weapons.com/Orders-of-battle/China/Forces-1939.htm
and this
http://www.niehorster.orbat.com/018_china/41_cha-00-000.htm
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Where does one begin? How far back does one go?
> 1894–95: First Sino-Japanese War. China, then under the Qing Dynasty, was defeated by Japan and was forced to cede Formosa, and to recognize the nominal independence (in fact, Japanese control) of Korea in the Treaty of Shimonoseki.
> 1912: Republic of China founded. The warlord Zhang Zuolin of Manchuria openly cooperated with the Japanese for military and economic assistance.
> 1915: Japan issued the Twenty-One Demands to extort further political and commercial privilege from China.
> Following World War I, Japan acquired the German Empire's sphere of influence in Shandong (Shantung), leading to nationwide anti-Japanese protests and mass demonstrations in China.
> 1928: Jinan Incident. The Kuomintang's National Revolutionary Army (NRA) swept through China until it was checked in Shandong, where Beiyang warlord Zhang Zongchang, backed by the Japanese, attempted to stop the NRA's advance. This battle culminated in the Jinan Incident of 1928 in which the National Revolutionary Army and the Imperial Japanese Army were engaged in a short conflict that resulted in Kuomintang's withdrawal from Jinan.
> 1928: Zhang Zuolin was assassinated when he became less willing to cooperate with Japan.
> 1931: The Mukden Incident, also known as the Manchurian Incident, was a staged event engineered by rogue Japanese military personnel as a pretext for the Japanese invasion of the northeastern part of China, known as Manchuria.
> 1931: Japanese invasion of Manchuria.
> December 1931: The Lytton Report by a League of Nations Commission
> Japan withdraws from the League of Nations.
> 1932: Chinese and Japanese troops fought a battle known as the January 28 Incident.
> 1933: Japanese attacked the Great Wall region.
> 1935: Under Japanese pressure, China signed the He–Umezu Agreement, which forbade the KMT from conducting party operations in Hebei.
> 1935: Chin–Doihara Agreement was signed expelling the KMT from Chahar.
> May 12, 1936: Mongol Military Government was formed.
> July 7, 1937: Full scale invasion of China.
> Six-week period starting December 13, 1937: Nanking Massacre, also known as the Rape of Nanking.
It is in this backdrop that the US began implementing measures to assist China and curtail Japan.
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Good educational research, gjs238. Thanks for your nice follow-up.
I have learned at least that if Chiang Kai-shek should have been such a trustful man as the allied supported, he would not have been defeated by Mao Tse-tung.
Pacific War might not have come.
I have learned at least that if Chiang Kai-shek should have been such a trustful man as the allied supported, he would not have been defeated by Mao Tse-tung.
Pacific War might not have come.
If you look at Asia in the early 20th century, much of it was occupied by European powers. Heck , Hawaii was "annexed" by the US within about 40 years of the bombing of Pearl Harbor, and this annexation was a hostile takeover with a threat of war with the US used to annex the islands.
Manchuria was under Russian control as late as 1925, the Dutch had their East Indian Possessions at the start of World War Two.
It is actually not that easy to find a Far Eastern country that was independent at this time, other than Japan and China. And China had lost it's "war of independence" (The boxer rebellion) against the predominantly western powers in 1900.
I think one has to realize that the opinions and perspective of leaders in Japan, and even much of the general population was not based on the world as of 1941 - it was based on what had happened over the last 20-40 years prior. A 60 year old Japanese man was 20 when the Boxers were defeated, about that age when the US forcibly annexed Hawaii.
And yet Japan tries to conduct their own "annexation" of lands in it's front yard - and is met by opposition, either diplomatic, by embargoes, and even a threat of military muscle such as deploying Naval and Air units in range of it's own home waters. As far as Japan was concerned, it could have looked like another visit from Commodore Perry 90 or so years later.
I think it would be very hard for Japanese leaders not to take this "personally". They were in essence told "We western powers own most of southeast Asia, but Japan is not allowed to establish their own colonial empire here". In addition to taking it personally, it would be hard not to take it as racially motivated as well. And perhaps a good portion of it was.
In most SE Asian colonial possessions, Europeans lived in a segregated society, and profited off the work of the Asians. Look to the Hawaiian plantation period as one source. The Asian were treated as second class citizens. And Japan was not allowed to establish itself as a power (OK, it already was, but Japanese expansion was extremely frowned upon), I could see how this would be easily taken that they were viewed as second class themselves. In all reality, for the most part they were, as western powers could not believe that Japanese had anything approximating a true first line fighter aircraft.
Manchuria was under Russian control as late as 1925, the Dutch had their East Indian Possessions at the start of World War Two.
It is actually not that easy to find a Far Eastern country that was independent at this time, other than Japan and China. And China had lost it's "war of independence" (The boxer rebellion) against the predominantly western powers in 1900.
I think one has to realize that the opinions and perspective of leaders in Japan, and even much of the general population was not based on the world as of 1941 - it was based on what had happened over the last 20-40 years prior. A 60 year old Japanese man was 20 when the Boxers were defeated, about that age when the US forcibly annexed Hawaii.
And yet Japan tries to conduct their own "annexation" of lands in it's front yard - and is met by opposition, either diplomatic, by embargoes, and even a threat of military muscle such as deploying Naval and Air units in range of it's own home waters. As far as Japan was concerned, it could have looked like another visit from Commodore Perry 90 or so years later.
I think it would be very hard for Japanese leaders not to take this "personally". They were in essence told "We western powers own most of southeast Asia, but Japan is not allowed to establish their own colonial empire here". In addition to taking it personally, it would be hard not to take it as racially motivated as well. And perhaps a good portion of it was.
In most SE Asian colonial possessions, Europeans lived in a segregated society, and profited off the work of the Asians. Look to the Hawaiian plantation period as one source. The Asian were treated as second class citizens. And Japan was not allowed to establish itself as a power (OK, it already was, but Japanese expansion was extremely frowned upon), I could see how this would be easily taken that they were viewed as second class themselves. In all reality, for the most part they were, as western powers could not believe that Japanese had anything approximating a true first line fighter aircraft.
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 3,954
- Jun 25, 2013
It is absolutely impossible to separate European (including Americans in that group) racial attitudes from their countries' relationships with Asia and Africa. Basically, there was a strong belief that non-Europeans were incapable of self-government, which was used to justify seizure. Some countries were much better behaved than others -- Belgium seemed particularly horrible, especially when the Congo was King Leopold's little piece of Hell -- but they all worked on the presumption that the non-Europeans were inferior.
Yeah swampyankee, that's pretty much what my conclusion on it was.
I wonder, how much of that thought of non-europeans being incapable of governing themselves was based upon European potential financial gain.
I.E. how much was it truly believed that that was the case, and how much was it believed only for convenience and to justify exploitation of the people and resources.
When you really look at it, Japan wanted to be pert of the "club" of colonial powers, and even believed in their superiority over other Asians as Europeans and Americans believed in their own superiority over Asians.
Unfortunately for Japan, The US and Europe did not want them to be part of the "club", even if we indeed accepted them as Allies in WW1.
A bit off topic, but are you familiar with "Bywater's War"?
I wonder, how much of that thought of non-europeans being incapable of governing themselves was based upon European potential financial gain.
I.E. how much was it truly believed that that was the case, and how much was it believed only for convenience and to justify exploitation of the people and resources.
When you really look at it, Japan wanted to be pert of the "club" of colonial powers, and even believed in their superiority over other Asians as Europeans and Americans believed in their own superiority over Asians.
Unfortunately for Japan, The US and Europe did not want them to be part of the "club", even if we indeed accepted them as Allies in WW1.
A bit off topic, but are you familiar with "Bywater's War"?
buffnut453
Captain
And Japan had similar attitudes about all foreigners being inferior - that knife cuts both ways.
Sadly, such attitudes are still prevalent in many countries across the world.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
And the Japanese and Chinese had been at serious odds over the centuries. When they rolled into Manchuria/China, it showed.
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 3,954
- Jun 25, 2013
Yes, but the Japanese couldn't do anything about it until after the Europeans had started to have their way in Asia, even China. As an aside, what kind of morality is implied when a war is started because a nation's government wants to prevent the importation of opium?
If I remember and interpret what I've read correctly, the Japanese people (or at least the Japanese elites) had a somewhat odd relationship with China, respecting Chinese culture but detesting the Chinese people. Probably the closest thing in the West would be the 19th Century opinion of Greece vs Greeks.
Well, the important morality issue for the Western powers was that stopping the opium trade prevented profits.
That would be like the US wanting to curtail crack cocaine importation, and the Drug cartels going to war with the US and enforcing crack importation. That is if the US was weak enough and the Drug cartels strong enough from a military standpoint for that to be the case.
- Thread starter
- #112
I think this points out one of the biggest underlying reasons for the war. Japan was westernizing and wanted to be treated as an equal. Instead they were treated as somewhere between an equal and the way the west treated the other Asian nations. The Washington Naval Treaty was a clear example of this, limiting Japan's navy to 2/3 that of Great Britain and the US.
When the western powers (incuding westernized Japan) went to "war" with China during the Boxer rebellion - the only interference was that the western powers tried to make sure they all had their "cut" of China.
Russia invaded and conquered a portion of Manchuria. No one attempted to stop this either by economic or other methods. Then, Japan takes a portion of Manchuria that Russia occupied, and they are coerced to return this to Russia. All of this happened at the beginning of the 20th century.
Then Japan invades Manchuria again, and there are diplomatic and trade measures taken against them.
It's pretty clear Japan wanted a colonial empire like that of European nations and the US - but the West did not want them to have this colonial empire.
Maybe that stems from the West believing Asians were incapable of self-government.
yulzari
Staff Sergeant
Though Japan may have wanted a colonial empire like the european powers it was bad timing. The wind back of empire had already begun in the British Empire as locals were beginning to be educated and appointed to official positions. Especially in India. Not in huge numbers but the process had begun and independence for India was already an official goal. The attitudes in the west of a previous generation had been content to turn a blind eye to the annexations of Korea and Formosa but the contemporary generation was seeing empires as a thing of the past. Japan could have got away with Manchuria but they pushed it that bit too far.
Putin might need to worry more about China than the Ukraine. Along the Sino Russian border it is China which is now the service and goods supplier to the Russians. If the Chinese and Japanese ever did a 19th century type deal to split asian Russia between them he would have to get used to the Urals being the eastern border of Russia.
Putin might need to worry more about China than the Ukraine. Along the Sino Russian border it is China which is now the service and goods supplier to the Russians. If the Chinese and Japanese ever did a 19th century type deal to split asian Russia between them he would have to get used to the Urals being the eastern border of Russia.
We all live in the Planet of Apes, don't we?
For Hirohito's honour, I think he was cute at least.
Yesterday, I had a news that Russia is going to reinforce its troops in our northern islands + other Kuril Islands by 2016.
Also today, I had a news that China has seized a Japanese large merchant ship in China as compensation for the Chinese 2 rental vessels lost in ww2. This is against the peace treaty signed in 1972.
The last war was over but red apes are not changed at all.
For Hirohito's honour, I think he was cute at least.
Yesterday, I had a news that Russia is going to reinforce its troops in our northern islands + other Kuril Islands by 2016.
Also today, I had a news that China has seized a Japanese large merchant ship in China as compensation for the Chinese 2 rental vessels lost in ww2. This is against the peace treaty signed in 1972.
The last war was over but red apes are not changed at all.
michaelmaltby
Colonel
"....The last war was over but red apes are not changed at all."
Leopards don't change their spots.
MM
Leopards don't change their spots.
MM
How did that work?
Orangutans (red apes) were the politicians
Chimpanzees were the scientists intelligentsia
Guerellas were the military
parsifal
Colonel
roughly when was that photo of the Emperor and Mac taken Shinpachi.....
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
I believe that was the photo taken of their first meeting, at the U.S. embassy in Tokyo, 27 September 1945
