Mike Williams
Senior Airman
- 572
- Oct 19, 2006
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It was, yes, although the DH props were of American origin - their 'Hydromatic' and counterweight props had appeared on bombers before fitting to fighters, but these were licence built Ham Std units. Rotol was the exception in Britain, but had limited application initially. The Rotol two position prop was first fitted to Spitfires with 54 Sqn in November/December 1939. This was initially limited to 54 Sqn however and the two position DH props were introduced in the Spring of 1940 - these were bracketed counter weight props. The DH and Rotol C/S props were fitted round about the same time as each other, from June/July 1940.
I'm well aware but the V-1650-1 was an American version (so probably slightly different) of the Merlin XX right? So that is different from a Spit V which used a Merlin 45 or 46 or 45M right? I thought the Spit V had a higher critical altitude.
Right but all versions of the P-40 had lower and higher drag / weight configurations like that. P-40L was four guns out of the factory.
Interesting. Yes on the P-39 though for some reason they seemed to struggle to get rated performance in the field (at least in American use) for reasons I never fully understood. Maybe that was another way the Russians got more out of them. P-51A was super fast but suffered from bad ailerons, fixed in later versions. The A version didn't seem to be a very good air to air combat aircraft.
Apart from using US-spec prop spline, different carb and IIRC different type of supercharger drive (Wright-designed instead of Farman licence), rest was pretty much the same.
For altitude power (in this case, say, 13000 ft and above), Merlin XX and 45 have had about same power, probably in single digits percantage. Merlin 46 have had a bigger impeller (10.85" vs. 10.25 in), and it was making a bit more power above ~20000 ft, and a bit less under ~18000 ft than Merlin 45. The Mk.46 sacrificed a lot of power under 10000 ft, and was not produced in great numbers.
Merlin 45M (M means here that impeller was cut down to 9.50" diameter) went the opposite way - it sacrificed hi-alt power to gain low-alt power.
As one can see 1-speed S/Ced engines means compromises to be made; the variable-speed, as well as 2- and 3-speed S/Ced egines are more flexible in altitude-power regard.
Spit V have had a high critical altitude, low-drag wing and pointy nose, however the small details kept it from being top fighter from mid-1941 on.
I don't agree that there was such a choice - as-produced, the P-40E was exclusively a 6-HMG overweight fighter, while P-40B was a fighter of reasonable weight. P-40L and N started as improved types from the get go, the N reverted to full fuel & gun laod pretty quick.
P-51A was produced in very small numbers (310 total?), so an accurate assesment is hard to make IMO.
Early P-39s the AAF used were not that good, especially once past 13000 ft. The P-39 that went beyond 380 mph was too late to matter - USAAF needed range, and P-39 was not up to the task. However they came in just in time for Soviets, that will need more than a year to produce indigenous fighter that can beat the P-39N/Q.
It's actually a bit more complex than that. Light vs. heavy, or you might say fighter vs. fighter bomber variations of the P-40 were being done in the field as far back as Java, the Philippines and Darwin in early 1942, when they first started taking guns, ammunition and fuel out and other things to lighten the aircraft so they could climb better during interceptions. P-40s were overloaded with full fuel, six guns with full ammunition, sway bars and an external tank. This gives a climb rate of about 2,000 feet per minute or less. With four guns, half fuel, 200 rounds per gun, and a few other things taken out (apparently some oil cooler armor which is repeatedly mentioned though this still gets debated) and higher boost it could be up to 3,000 fpm or more.
The P-40D / Kittyhawk I was originally a four gun model, the US didn't use any but some 560 went to the RAF. Some had 6 guns but some had 4. The F models were stripped by US mechanics down to four guns, with several other things stripped out. This was then copied by Curtiss with the L, which came standard with four guns, 200 rounds per gun and the forward wing fuel tank removed. Both types would be given six guns if they were using them more for fighter bomber missions. This also sometimes depended on the unit. For example 325th FG which flew mostly escort missions for a long time was using four guns, whereas 324th was always using six guns. When 325th started doing more FB missions they added the extra guns and ammunition in.
The very early P-40N-5-CU through N-10-CU were 'interceptor' versions with 4 guns and several other things stripped out - including some like removing the starter which were unpopular changes. These were the 378 mph version. Then there were later versions (N-15-CU through N-35-CU) with a lower rated engine and much heavier configuration which were intended as fighter bombers (this was basically the only mission for the P-40N in British use as the Kittyhawk IV for example). Fully loaded these had a top speed of ~ 340 mph. In the CBI and Pacific however there was still a need for faster and higher flying (CBI over the Himalayas) or climbing (New Guinea / Solomons) versions so the field stripping started again, and Curtiss responded with other fast four gun versions with the higher rated engine (N-40-CU). These were fast like the N-5 and N-10.
The M was intended for export as a fighter bomber (most went to the British). The K was kind of it's own niche with the high-rated (1,500+ hp) low altitude Allison V-1710-73 and it was pretty fast even with six guns.
However all of those changes could be and were done in the field. If they were facing a lot of air to air combat with fighters or needed to scramble to intercept raids it was routine to take 2 guns out and then other things.
Well by my understanding there were 150 NA-91 / P-51 (no letter) / Mustang IA, around 700 NA-99 / P-51A / Mustang II, and 500 A-36 "Apache" dive bombers from what I understand, so that is around 1,350 produced. The Mustang IA and II was in somewhat wide use by the British who liked them as recon / day intruder planes, but were also flown by some US units mostly in the CBI where it was hoped to be a kind of savior. They had a poor combat record in air to air combat, only one Ace for example out of all of those aircraft. We had a long discussion about it on here and it turned out the problem was small ailerons, which were improved in the P-51B onward.
Field modification != version. One is done in field (doh), another is what actually manufacturer produed.
There was no 6 gun P-40D.
All P-40Ns were powered by, for all intents and purposes, same engine - same rpm, same boost allowed, same critical altitude, same take off power, same WER.
It was pretty fast at low altitudes. That's okay, if not what USAAF really wanted by 1942.
Kinda points out that 'short-nose' P-40s needed much more power than it had, especially at altitude (15000 ft and up) - between 8300-8670 lbs, it weighted about same as the Fw 190.
Removing fuel tanks is self-defeating, even if removing the guns is not.
You do know that P-51, A-36 and P-51 were very different aircraft?
310 of Mustang II/P-51A produced, 1st delivered in March 1943, 1st use Sept 1943.
...
My understanding is that there was a four gun P-40D- not for the US but for the British, though it's unclear how many were delivered as such. It was also possible to put two guns back in if it came with four since there was provision for another pair at some point in the production run.
My understanding is that they used different versions of the V-1710 ranging from 1,300 hp for takeoff (V-1710-81 / F20R) on the N1 through N 10, to 1200 hp for takeoff (V-1710-99 / F26R) for N -15 through N 35, back to 1,350 hp for takeoff (V-1710-115 (F31R) on the N-40. There were other differences, some were optimized (gear ratio) for a higher critical altitude, others for harder running (higher boost). There was of course overlap but that was the general tradeoff. WEP power ranges from 1480 hp for the -99 to closer to 1,550 hp for the 115. The boost control on the -99 prevented overboosting.
Internally of course I'm sure they were very similar but in terms of actual use, there were differences.
Removing fuel (and fuel tanks) was apparently considered a normal tactic for many aircraft when they had to scramble. It was also done with Hurricanes and Buffalos in the SW Pacific.
A-36 (500 produced) was different because it had airbrakes, but the P-51A, Mustang IA and II were not very different except for armament IMO. And there were enough of those produced and into combat for a realistic evaluation.
Just blundered across something which answered another nagging question I'd had for a long time. We all know about the infamous Vokes filter, with some debate as to how bad it was, then replaced by the "Aboukir" filter which was superior. I always wondered why Kittyhawks didn't seem to have this kind of problem. I was just reading an interview with Bobby Gibbes and he mentioned something interesting about filters. He said "Buck Abou Kir" developed an air filter for the Kittyhawks which was later adopted by Curtiss Wright! Gibbes himself used to test fly the aircraft with the new filters. Gibbes said that prior to the new filter being adopted, engine life was down to 60-70 hours due to dust, (which isn't much better than what the Russians were reportedly getting with P-40s). With the filter he said it went up to about 120 hours. Gibbes also noted that a German pilot told him the German engines were failing after 20-30 hours.
"Yes. Well turning to the more technical side of it in terms of servicing aircraft, how good were those facilities?
(20.00) Well back .... We used to have two flights plus a base camp, and if any major damage was done the aircraft would be serviced by the base camp. But basically, out in the field, out in the desert, we'd ... each flight would do its own maintenance. They couldn't do anything really major but they kept things flying. Motors used to chop out after sixty or seventy hours. They were finished. We had an engineer called Buck Abou Kir - Shirley Abou Kir's father - and he designed an air filter, and I did the test flying for his air filter. Later that air filter was adopted by Curtiss Wright and fitted into all the Kittyhawks. I think it was from Buck's filter - probably got a few mods - but that .... Our engine hours went up to about 120 then. I was talking to a German pilot who was commanding officer of JG 27 in North Africa. He said the Messerschmitt engines didn't .... They got no more than twenty or thirty hours before they would cut out. "
Tried googling this Abou Kir, I found this person Shirley Abicair, daughter of a Wing Commander in the RAAF but it doesn't give his name. I know there was a town called Abou Qir or Abukir in Egypt where they had a major RAF air base, and I always thought that was the origin of the name of the filter. Not sure what the actual link is here...
S
The P-40D was a 4-gun type.
Boost control allowed 'carefree' overboosting; no over-boosting = no WER.
The V-1710-81, -99 and -115 were all with S/C gear ratio 9.60:1, take off power 1200 HP, mil power 1125 HP at 14500-15000 ft. WER was 1480 HP at 7500 ft (going lower can allow for more boost = more power, if engine can take it).
With Buffaloes - probably it was the case. With Hurricanes - nothing to remove, it was already shorter ranged than the P-39, that Gen Kenney loathed (he was barely satisfied with range of P-40).
P-51A and Mustang IIwere the same aircraft - one with US name, other with British name. Engine with critical alt at ~15000 ft (1125 HP there). Has drop tanks.
Mustang IA (P-51) was cannon-armed version of Mustang I (~XP-51). Engine with critical alt at 12000 ft (1150 HP there). No drop tanks.
A-36 - powered by low-alt V-1710.
All of them performed differently at any given altitude, P-51A being the best of the lot in fighter role, not just due to 410+ mph speed.
I'd certainly suggest the two books: 'American hundred thousand' and 'Vee's for victory'.
Right, and usually tension between pilots who sometimes wanted more boost (especially if intense air to air combat or repeated scrambles) vs. aircraft and engine company and the military hierarchy who wanted to keep engines running for more than 60 hours. I think the -81 allowed a higher WEP setting than the -99 did, and the 115 went back to the high setting, basically. Of course if a pilot wanted to override the boost limitation, especially in say Australian service or in American units in places like China or Burma, they could have the mechanic do what they wanted. Or even put in a different engine.
I thought there was some slight variation in the gear ratios between the three types but I'll take your word for it.
Well, they routinely took out a pair of cannon in the Hurricane IIcs, and up to 4 -6 x .303s in the earlier mks, in attempts to save weight. That was done both in the Pacific and in the Western Desert.
I have both Americas Hundred Thousand (which I think isn't as good as everyone said it was) and Vees for Victory.
My point being that none of the above Allison engined variants of the P-51 did that well in air to air combat, or in my opinion lived up to their potential. The problem wasn't the Allison but was rather with the ailerons, apparently. I think if they had made NA-91 through 99 types with the bigger / better ailerons they could have had an excellent low altitude fighter out of it.
Not quite I think:
The Spitfire's development line went from the MkI then II then V and IX, if it had gone from the MkIII, a totally different aircraft we would have had the MkVIII and then the XIV instead. The MkIII air frame was a generation ahead of the MkII, two speed engine, shorter cleaner wings, retractable tail wheel, covered main gear and internal bullet proof windscreen. The MkIII gave the RAF an honest 385mph fighter with 650 mile range in 1941, 415 mph in 1942 accompanied by the Griffon powered XII and XIV from 1942 onwards.
Doesn't change my criticism at all about your comments.
Yeah, I know this. Doesn't change my criticism at all about your comments. The Mk.III was developed by joe Smith and had a Merlin with a two speed supercharger and other refinements that went into other variants, it's clipped wings in the 'V and retractable tailwheel into the Mk.VIII for example, but the Merlin 45, although having a single stage supercharger offered greater poower and higher manifold pressures and this was put in the 'V. Remember, the performance the 'III offered was that of a prototype, which didn't have guns, ammo or armour, so its performance was not representative of what it would have been in service.
It was overtaken by events and the Air Ministry's desire to adopt the Mk V as an interim. One of the prototypes of the Mk.III became the first Spitfire to be fitted with a 60 Series Merlin, which promised greater performance again than existing Spitfires. By the time it was to have been put into production, the edge it might have had in 1940/41 would have been lost to the Fw 190. The 'V and 'IX were based on the same airframe; putting them into production as an expeditious measure made far more sense in terms of the swiftly developing war. Also, the HF.VII and Mk.VIII with refinements and 60 Series Merlin offered much more over time and it was a Mk.VIII that became the prototype of the 'XIV.
The two speed prop is a good intermediate step between fixed pitch and constant speed, with the benefit that after making the necessary mods to install it, you're most of the way there. Prop pitch changes are made by the application of pressurized engine oil through two galleries bored into the spine shaft, one driving course and one driving fine. This requires a high pressure oil pump to drive it and a shuttle valve that sends pressure to one gallery or the other or to both equally. This shuttle valve is attached to the prop pitch lever. You now have a prop that can be a "climb" or a "cruise" prop, but in either position, behaves like a conventional fixed pitch prop, meaning the pilot must control RPMs with the throttle.by 1939 most UK fighters (and the Skua/Roc) were using a UK designed VP (2) pitch prop which was somewhat superior to a fixed pitch prop,
IIn most cases there is no way for a manual override to work, as the governor itself is a pretty robust, simple device, not much given to failure. The most likely failure would be a rupture of a seal in the propeller or spline shaft/crank case interface, releasing the pressurized oil, defeating a manual control system, and driving the prop to its coarse or fine pitch limits where it will act as a fixed pitch prop.I have some questions on pitch settings for climb and dive and so forth (manual override?) and which aircraft had the best / most efficient prop pitch control (constant speed was the gold standard I gather, but what other options were there if any?)
This sort of implies that Automatic Boost Control is somehow related to propeller control. It's not. In fact, a reliable constant speed prop reduces the need for boost control, as boost excursions are generally tied to RPM excursions, at least with direct drive superchargers. Fluid coupled drives are another matter. The only other cause for an overboost (direct drive only) is overenthusiastic throttle jockeying while ignoring the Manifold Pressure gage. That's like ignoring Vne, Gmax, or Bingo fuel. Take care of your ride and she'll take care of you.By June 1940 all Hurricanes and Spitfires had three bladed, two pitch props.
By August 15, 1940 1051 Spitfires and Hurricanes in the field were equipped with constant speed propellers with automatic boost control. Production lines were also being converted to constant speed props.
MANIFESTUS ABSURDUM! Yeah, they could have been, if certain ass-tute individuals hadn't decided that the benefits of that investment weren't worth the expense. That's right up there with cavalry officers making procurement decisions for the Air Corps.The RAF was at the forefront of propeller technology in 1940.
I believe they struggled to get rated performance, because they were originally rated under somewhat "optimistic" conditions and configuration, rather than realistic field conditions. Larry Bell tended to be that way.Yes on the P-39 though for some reason they seemed to struggle to get rated performance in the field (at least in American use) for reasons I never fully understood.