On August 19th, 1942, "Johnnie" Johnson, flying a Spitfire Mk Vb or VC, engaged a Focke-Wulf 190 over Dieppe and recounted that the F-W190,"Bore strange markings on the side of its fuselage just below the cockpit. This painted crest looked very similar to the markings of the Italian Air Force..." Johnson went on to recount how the F-W190 out-turned his Spitfire and Johnson only escaped by diving across a Royal Navy destroyer and the resulting flak apparently discouraged the F-W pilot, who chose not to chase Johnson. Does anyone know who this German pilot was? He was probably from JG2 or JG26 but apart from that, it is the only time that I have read of an F-W190 out turning a Spitfire.
"Johnnie" Johnson-August 19th, 1942 Combat-Dieppe
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fubar57
General
In the book, "Dieppe The Greatest Air Battle 19th August 1942" by Norman Franks, its just as you wrote but nothing on Luftwaffe squadron numbers. About the 190, all Johnson said was this....
fubar57
General
About the 190 out-turning the Spitfire, long story short....The Supermarine Spitfire Mk. IX was built as an urgent response to the formidable German Focke-Wulf Fw 190, which briefly outclassed the RAF's Spitfire Mk. V
EDIT: Clipped wings were introduced on the Supermarine Spitfire Mk V in late 1941 to 1942. This modification was created specifically to counter the German Fw 190
EDIT: Clipped wings were introduced on the Supermarine Spitfire Mk V in late 1941 to 1942. This modification was created specifically to counter the German Fw 190
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The problem with this is the timing; the FW190 was introduced onto the Channel front in August, 1941. The Spitfire Mk IX was not introduced into Squadron service until July, 1942...
fubar57
General
Upgrades don't happen over night. The Mk.V had to struggle on with the clipped wings until the Mk.IX entered service
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I still wonder just which German pilot was flying that FW190!
jdakapluto
Recruit
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- Jan 14, 2022
Hello, quick comment. I am both a retired military / commercial pilot (40 years flying) and an air combat simulation designer (tabletop, not computer). Also, I have studied WW2 air combat history as a passionate enthusiast for almost all of my adult life. I am of the opinion that it is best to not put much faith in anecdotal pilot combat stories that appear in books for a number of reasons - and, rather, to stick to the evidence of raw physics and aerodynamic design. With regards to anecdotes in books, such as Johnson's story... remember, that (a), the author and author's publisher want to sell the book to audience and exciting stories do that better. So there is the possibility of some exaggeration, perhaps not by the author, but by the publisher editor etc. Second, nobody can ever provide us the exact circumstances of that particular engagement - by which I mean, starting speeds, energy state, position and orientation of the two opponents at the actual start of their fight, so as to properly analyze it after the fact. Finally, I might add, that such anecdotes are built from the perspective of the pilot telling the story, and it is very possible that 1) he had the illusion of being out-turned due to the relative motion of the Fw 190 across his field of view, or that 2) he actually was being out-turned at that particular moment, not due to any built in superiority of the Fw 190 in turning, but due to the fact that their energy states were very different (he on the verge of a stall and the 190 still with energy which allowed the 190 to generate a greater rate of turn, despite having a wider turn radius from that speed). I personally have experienced both situations in mock air combats during my military days. The fact remains, regardless, that given equal energy states at the start of a turning contest - A Spitfire will always out turn an Fw 190 in the level.
Have a great day - Loved Johnson's book by the way.
J.D. Webster
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Thank you Mr Webster, I read your observations with great interest. I would point out that Johnson's book was first published in 1956, so his memory would have been relatively fresh about this. Secondly, I very much doubt if Johnson would either have exaggerated, or allowed a Publisher/editor change his original wording.
Johnson wrote that he saw the FW190 coming towards him, before they both engaged in a turning battle, so I am quite sure that both pilots would have made their respective aircraft as battle worthy as possible. It's quite probable that Johnson encountered a pilot who could wring more out of his aircraft in a turning battle than Johnson could have. I'd still like to know who that German pilot was though!
Having read that many years ago and recently refreshed the memory with the kindle edition of the book, I've often wondered if the FW 190 pilot simply applied take off flap (10 degrees) - no doubt in contravention of strict instructions to use take off flap for take off only, but when needs must etc. Noting also that effective automatic battle flaps were a thing in WW2, particularly notable on the NIK2-J
As to who the pilot was and if he were really Italian (shrug)
Mind you, an Italian might be more likely to ignore standing instructions than a German.
As to who the pilot was and if he were really Italian (shrug)
Mind you, an Italian might be more likely to ignore standing instructions than a German.
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Plus: You may well be right about the use of flaps, I had considered the same idea. I tried looking into the relative turning circles of a Spitfire Mk V and an FW190 A-3 but the figures are all over the place. I suspect reality came down to pilot ability/experience. I've still got no further to finding out who the pilot of that FW190 was!
bada
Airman 1st Class
Well yes and no...the clipped wings weren't the miracle solution and even with clipped wings, the spit was still far off the würger in the roll rate area and was loosing precious turn rate.
It isn't until the appearance of the universal wing that clipped wings became more frequent, but at that time LW was already it's own shadow, and the raf was on the offensive, the % of chance of meeting a german plane with a combat possbility was much smaller than in 41/42 (and even then,in41-43, the LW played on it's own rules, intervening when and where they got the advantage, like a BoB , but inverted.)
This Fw 190 over Dieppe on 19 August 1942 most likely cannot be positively identified to a specific pilot. However, it was almost certainly an aircraft from III./JG2, which was heavily engaged in the battle at the time. Johnson's description of a "painted crest" under the cockpit resembling Italian markings strongly suggests an individual or Staffel emblem rather than standard JG2 insignia. III./JG 2 was known for carrying a variety of personal markings during this period, especially in 7., 8., and 9. Staffel. While pilots such as Egon Mayer and Siegfried Schnell are often mentioned due to their confirmed activity over Dieppe that day, I think there is no evidence linking a specific aircraft to the emblem desribed.
Most likely, the aircraft was flown by an unidentified III. /JG2 pilot carring a non-standard personal emblem the looked like Italian-style heraldic markings.
Most likely, the aircraft was flown by an unidentified III. /JG2 pilot carring a non-standard personal emblem the looked like Italian-style heraldic markings.
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Yep and Dieppe really forced the RAF to confront a hard truth: the way they had been thinking about air combat simply didn't work anymore against the Fw 190.
Up to that point, a lot of RAF training and experience with the Spitfire V still leaned on tight formations and turning fights. At Dieppe, that approach fell apart very quickly. The Fw 190 didn't want to turn-fight in a traditional sense — instead it came in fast, hit hard, and was gone again before the RAF could properly react. Each pass tended to break up formations, and once the Spitfires were separated, it became a series of individual fights rather than anything coordinated.
What really stood out was how hard it was to regain control once things had fractured. RAF pilots found that chasing the Fw 190 in a dive or trying to force a turning engagement just bled away their own energy, while the German fighters stayed in control of the fight's rhythm.
After Dieppe, there was a clear shift in thinking. The RAF moved away from relying on tight formations and tried to build tactics around pairs of aircraft supporting each other, better situational awareness, and more focus on energy management instead of pure turning ability. Just as importantly, pilots were taught not to get dragged into the Fw 190's preferred style of combat. In a way, Dieppe was a wake-up call. It didn't just show that the Fw 190 was a dangerous opponent — it changed how the RAF thought about air combat altogether.
