Join the Army or go to jail....

[ccheese]

The following was in today's Virginian Pilot's letters to the editor. The writer is responding to a previous letter about "Prison spending getting out of hand"

"Many people in prison should not be there. They committed a crime, yes, but the punishment should fit the crime. Violent offenders should remain in prison for an extended amount of time. However, many others – maybe hundreds of thousands – could be punished in a different way."

"We have a shortage of military personnel. Let non-violent prisoners out and make them work for the military for five or ten years. Put a tracking device on them, if need be."

"At the end of their sentence, erase their record if they have served our country with honor and dignity. That way they can be free and have something to look forward to, in the future."

"We must find an alternative for punishment that helps families and lifts a person from despair."

/s/ Jan Rogers, Windsor, VA

Because most of us up here on the forum are in some way or another connected to he military, I thought I would throw this on the floor for debate. I really don't know if I would want to share a barracks or a compartment on a ship with a petty thief, a drug addict or drug pusher, someone convicted of DUI's or whatever else the writer considers "the others" .

How about you ?

Charles

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Years ago this was a deterrent for juveniles who got in trouble - this seems like the courts would push someone else's problems on the military. I think it stinks.

 

[Lucky13]

In Sweden it is/was the other way around. If you didn't do your military service you ended up IN the slammer instead....
Some countries could use the mandatory service to get rid of some of the trash from the streets...
But, then SOME people would probably scream and rub papers about human rights and stuff in your face, and those having to do it, screaming for mum and dad...!

 

[evangilder]

Many people in prison should not be there. They committed a crime, yes, but the punishment should fit the crime.

So what IS a punishment that fits the crime? Is the author of that paper that military service is a punishment? Spoken like a clueless idiot.

Let non-violent prisoners out and make them work for the military for five or ten years.

More clueless blathering. I would rather be in a unit with honorable volunteers than with some two-bit criminals that are looking at service as a way out of punishment for a crime.

 

[Lucky13]

Didn't some countires have some kind of, not regiments maybe, but perhaps companies made up by prisoners?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

In Sweden it is/was the other way around. If you didn't do your military service you ended up IN the slammer instead....
Some countries could use the mandatory service to get rid of some of the trash from the streets...
But, then SOME people would probably scream and rub papers about human rights and stuff in your face, and those having to do it, screaming for mum and dad...!

It's funny - I once read an article about the rise of gangs in the US - most of the real problems started in the years AFTER the Vietnam War and AFTER the draft was done away with. It took organizations like the Crips and Bloods about 10 years to mature into sophisticated crime organizations but it all started when those between the ages of 18-21 who were unmotivated and criminal were able to mass together.

 

[evangilder]

That's a good argument for conscription, Joe. I think having mandatory service of some sort should be the law. It makes people better citizens.

 

[Lucky13]

It didn't do me any damage....I think.

 

[plan_D]

In World War II, the German and Soviet militaries had penal battalions. They were basically the people you sent in first to expend some of the enemies ammo - the Germans named theirs the SS-Fallschirmjaeger ... put the sh*ts up anyone opposing them until they realised they were just cons with a scary name (scary because the W-SS and Fallschirmjager were f*cking amazing fighters)

 

[T4.H]

It is dangerous even to think about something like this...espacially in a time when you are in war!
In my opinion, the justice system of the USA is not fair. It is a big difference, if you are rich or poor.
I would fear, that the US Army starts to "order" new recruits at some judges.

The US-Army lacks of educated and also motivated soldiers...
And around the world, the US Army is nowadays famous for there war-crimes especially in Irak...
Do you want to go next to someone into a battle who is only in your unit, because if not, he would end in jail?

 

[plan_D]

The U.S military has committed no war crimes, you are a deluded piece of sh*t without a slither of a clue to say that. The U.S troops, along with all other troops, that face battle day in and day out are worth more than a million of you. The 'war crimes' you claim they make are no more than mistakes and mishaps on the battlefield, a scary and excited place to be where mistakes will be made. None of those mistakes made by the SOLDIERS would be made if those ****-sucking insurgents would just lay down their arms and stop PLAYING soldier and allow Iraq to become a country in the 21st Century instead of the 1st Century.

Your view on the Iraq War as a whole is irrelevant, it gives you NO excuse to bad mouth the troops fighting for the security of that god forsaken sh*thole called Iraq. The U.S forces commit no war crimes, they're not in a war that is covered by the Geneva Convention anymore anyway - they're in a counter-insurgency war where any f*cker with a gun is the enemy ... and I hope the Coalition kills every c*nt who thinks its fun to face up against these people who are the ones that are REALLY rebuilding Iraq not the piss-ant lefty charities who would not be anywhere without the Coalition equipment to carry them and the Coalition men and women to protect them.

As for the lack of discipline ... have you ever fought alongside U.S troops? What gives you the right to judge their ability to fight?

 

[Njaco]

I may noy be entitled to an opionion on this as I have no military record but I seem to remember that at one time not long ago, US citizens were given the choice to serve and didn't do too bad.

That being said, I have a few thoughts. I'm not sure what degree of crime would fit but one of my ticks is this. I'm divorced and I pay child support. I have no problem, I adjust my life so my children come first. I'm ahead on my payments. But...

There is a wave of fatherless children or children whose fathers don't pay. I don't want to get into a debate about that system (it is messed up in areas!) but for those fathers who don't pay, where the mothers are on welfare, WIC, foodstamps, etc., put the fathers in the military to "work" off the debt. May see the birth rate go down.

Last time I heard it costs about $20,000 to house a prisoner in the US. Out of taxpayers pockets. And at some joints the have amenities I can only dream of. Give them some discipline and pride.

Of course, the views of some here - such as who you are fighting with - I agree also. Its hard to have an answer.

 

[evangilder]

It is dangerous even to think about something like this...espacially in a time when you are in war!
In my opinion, the justice system of the USA is not fair. It is a big difference, if you are rich or poor.
I would fear, that the US Army starts to "order" new recruits at some judges.

The US-Army lacks of educated and also motivated soldiers...
And around the world, the US Army is nowadays famous for there war-crimes especially in Irak...
Do you want to go next to someone into a battle who is only in your unit, because if not, he would end in jail?

I suggest you flush out your head gear and issue an apology to our standing US troops. You obviously don't know jack squat about what you speak. I am being kind, even though I would be very tempted to rip your throat out if you said that in front of me.

You have 24 hours to either back that statement up with FACTS or issue a retraction and apologize.

 

[Lucky13]

I'm not gonna say anything because I'd run the risk of being banned. But I Think that you gentlemen know what I feel towards our boys and girls doing other peoples dirty work...

 

[Lucky13]

I'm gonna take cover now, before the earthquake....

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

In my opinion, the justice system of the USA is not fair. It is a big difference, if you are rich or poor.

Just like every other justice system in the world including Germany's.

I would fear, that the US Army starts to "order" new recruits at some judges.

What?

The US-Army lacks of educated and also motivated soldiers...

Excuse me lacks educated Soldiers? Where do you come up with this. Sorry but you dont know what you are talking about.

Did you know that more people in the US Army have a college education than probably any other military in the world.

You also say the US Army lacks motivated soldiers? Where do you come up with this as well? Have you served in the US Army?

No...

I have and I can tell you are wrong again. Sorry but you dont know what you are talking about.

Have you been watching ZDF again? Everytime I see this very political and anti American TV Channel I laugh because it is wrong in 90 percent of what it broadcasts.

And around the world, the US Army is nowadays famous for there war-crimes especially in Irak...

And in that case they are wrong. War-Crimes has been very minimal in Iraq. In fact there have not been any war crimes. There have been things done that probably should not have been done but there wer eno war crimes.

The US Army does not have a policy of torture or a policy of killing innocent civilians.

As a veteran of Iraq I am disgusted.

 

[T4.H]

Did you read my post?

Also if the other side commits war crimes, you didn't have the right to do so.
This you should know.
Bullshit. In war all armys commit war crimes. Some more, some less. But they commit war crimes. Lighter ones or realy bad ones. In each war, everywhere.
Soldiers are humans. You have nice guys, and bad boys. I am one of them, who believes that (less or more, the few % who wouldn't do this, didn't count) everyone can get a killer.
You have only get angry frustrated or demotivated enough.
I'm pretty sure, that I am one of this.
And the most worth thing is, if someone get the chance to play god. Think of Abu Ghuraib.
Even german soldiers have committed some war crimes in Afganistan (only lighter ones). Now they are in trouble.
I have to accepted, that in war, soldiers commit war crimes. I didn't accept, if they commit too much of them. And if they didn't get in prison.
With each war crime and also with each bomb, which hit the wrong ones, you produce thousands of persons, who hates you. And perhaps 10 to thousand persons, who decide to fight you.
I'm pretty sure because of Abu Ghraib, there were more than 1000 terrorist produced and perhaps US 100 soldiers and thousands of irak civilians have died till now. Unimportant how much you hate the other side, you have to be intelligent enough not to commit any war crimes. Or be intelligent enough, to do it, when noone has a chance to recognice it.

Have you read the Genfer convention? I did. Because I couldn't believe that the Talibans are "soldiers"...they are. Captured ones are POW's with all rights.
It is not allowed to make an interrogation! And also the rest is not allowed what is done. No camps everywhere in the world, in which they disappear. Not these one in cuba, afganistan, rumania etc...
Don't understand me wrong, I don't like them. And personally, if they die, it wouldn't care me. But because of this, you have the Genfer convention. Because of persons who wouldn't care.

I remember now...(Queensryche)

Do you remember:
The lonely Iraki soldier, hunted by a AH64 with the 3 cm gun?
BAmBAmBAmFalls down, stand up again...BAmBAmBAm Falls down...
It is not allowed, to shoot with a 3 cm gun on soldiers (genfer convention)

The wounded one trying to get away from his car...And the gunner of the AH64 saying to his pilot (something like): There is a wounded one. I can't kill him.
Pilot (something like): Shoot on the car...
Perhaps one or two of the bullets hit the car...the rest...went next to it...
It is not allowed, to shoot on wounded ones...and with 3 cm...

Or the group going into a building, several wounded one where lying in this building (since a day?).
One of the soldier was shouting on one of the wounded...then he shot him in his head, half a meter distance...

I have perhaps a different opinion, what a warcrime is. For me this are warcrimes.

In my opinion, the justice system of the USA is not fair. It is a big difference, if you are rich or poor.

Just like every other justice system in the world including Germany's.

Yep of course. Did I say, the system in my country is better? I haven't said this.

I would fear, that the US Army starts to "order" new recruits at some judges

What?

Ok...this was not correct. Let say it on another way. If a justice is pro army. He believes, the army needs more soldiers. This can influence his decision. Even if he didn't want.

Excuse me lacks educated Soldiers? Where do you come up with this. Sorry but you dont know what you are talking about.

Did you know that more people in the US Army have a college education than probably any other military in the world.

You also say the US Army lacks motivated soldiers? Where do you come up with this as well? Have you served in the US Army?

No...

OK, this was wrong. In a modern army, less or more you needed only high educated soldiers.
Come on, after several years of war, the motivation of the ground forces is down. Every day something blows up somewhere. Someone is shooting on you. Sniper attacks. And most time you didn't see the enemy. What do you fear most? This one, you didn't see. They didn't get enough sleep.
This is normal.

 

[evangilder]

Blah blah blah....WHERE ARE YOU FACTS?!?! Your clock is ticking, mister.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Did you read my post?

Also if the other side commits war crimes, you didn't have the right to do so.
This you should know.
Bullshit. In war all armys commit war crimes. Some more, some less. But they commit war crimes. Lighter ones or realy bad ones. In each war, everywhere.
Soldiers are humans. You have nice guys, and bad boys. I am one of them, who believes that (less or more, the few % who wouldn't do this, didn't count) everyone can get a killer.

Yes Soldiers are humans but tell me what war crimes have been made by US Soldiers in Iraq.

Seriously. I dont think you can come up with a serious one. Yes things have been done that probably should not have been done but there were no war crimes committed.

You saying that the US Army has a reputation for committing war crimes is absolutely bullshit and not true.

Unimportant how much you hate the other side, you have to be intelligent enough not to commit any war crimes. Or be intelligent enough, to do it, when noone has a chance to recognice it.

So because a few make some mistakes you believe the whole US Army is "unintelligent". Were all Germans "unintelligent" because of the war crimes committed against the jews.

Have you read the Genfer convention? I did. Because I couldn't believe that the Talibans are "soldiers"...they are. Captured ones are POW's with all rights.

Yeah I have read the Geneva Convention. It is standard training for US soldiers.

Terrorists are not soldiers....

They are not covered by the Geneva Convention. If they believed in the Geneva Convention none of this would have been happening because there would still be two really big towers in New York and several thousand people would still be alive!

Do you remember:
The lonely Iraki soldier, hunted by a AH64 with the 3 cm gun?
BAmBAmBAmFalls down, stand up again...BAmBAmBAm Falls down...
It is not allowed, to shoot with a 3 cm gun on soldiers (genfer convention)

The wounded one trying to get away from his car...And the gunner of the AH64 saying to his pilot (something like): There is a wounded one. I can't kill him.
Pilot (something like): Shoot on the car...
Perhaps one or two of the bullets hit the car...the rest...went next to it...
It is not allowed, to shoot on wounded ones...and with 3 cm...

You obviously have not seen the full video. This is a perfect example of how you only see a part of something and make judgements off of not knowing the whole thing that happened.

I have seen the whole video....

Our unit replaced them and we were shown the full video.

Or the group going into a building, several wounded one where lying in this building (since a day?).
One of the soldier was shouting on one of the wounded...then he shot him in his head, half a meter distance...

You are talking about the incident in Falujah correct? Do you know the whole story? I take it no...

Right before this happened the wounded Iraqi had just killed this soldiers battle buddy. In the shock and anger that he felt he killed the man who killed his friend.

Yeah he probably should not have done so, however unless you have felt what he felt dont judge the man for a mistake. It was not a war crime.

I have perhaps a different opinion, what a warcrime is. For me this are warcrimes.

It is easy to judge from sitting in your comfortable and safe living room...

 

[Lucky13]

And what would all that the suicide bombers be called then? Never mentioned them. THAT is war crime to me....how many have they killed, and civilians too, remember?