I am writing a book that involves stealing a JU-52 and taking off. I have found a lot of good technical information, even a video (video gaming) showing the instrument panel and controls. However, I have found conflicting information and need clarification. Rudder pedals. Did the JU have them. The video talks about (and cockpit pictures show) left and right rudder trim levers; does not mention rudder pedals. Another source mentions rudder pedals equipped with an 'adjustable load feel mechanism'. What is that? Did they have levers, pedals or did they have both? Different mechanisms between pilot and co-pilot? Also brakes. Main wheel brakes set by advancing throttles all the way down (engines idle and brakes on). Throttle at 25%, engines idle, brakes off. Did they not have toe brakes? Tailwheel, lockable or not? Appreciate any help clarifying. Any JU manuals in English would also help.
JU-52 Operation
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fubar57
General
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- #3
Thank you for yourk reply. I knew there had to be rudder pedals. I couldn't believe any aircraft wouldn't have them. How would the pilot hold the yoke and use the trim levers. I assume the rudder pedals work like any other, same with toe brakes. But I'm not sure where/how the 'auxiliary foot pedals' in your diagram fit in. Or how the rudder trim levers would work in concert with pedals. Do you happen to know what the 'adjustable load feel mechanism' is? My problem is my escaped POW pilot who will steal Iron Annie has a tin leg below the knee. I want everything to be as technically accurate as possible.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Auxiliary pedals ?
The diagram shows pilot's and co-pilot's pedal arrangement. The rudder trim would work like any other rudder trim - wind on/off, to set the angle of the rudder trim tab, to ease the load on the pilot's legs as required.
Not sure about the adjustable 'load feel' mechanism, but I assume it is a bias adjustment on the pedal movement, adjusted as preferred, controlling the amount of 'feed back' through the movement and / or effort required to move the pedals for 'X' amount of right / left movement.
The diagram shows pilot's and co-pilot's pedal arrangement. The rudder trim would work like any other rudder trim - wind on/off, to set the angle of the rudder trim tab, to ease the load on the pilot's legs as required.
Not sure about the adjustable 'load feel' mechanism, but I assume it is a bias adjustment on the pedal movement, adjusted as preferred, controlling the amount of 'feed back' through the movement and / or effort required to move the pedals for 'X' amount of right / left movement.
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- #5
Ahhh. Dummy. I misread the diagram. I took the Hilfs-Fusshebel (aux foot pedals) to be vertically aligned, instead to horizontal over to the co-pilot. Makes much more sense. Your 'load feel mechanism' explanation makes as much sense as anything. I'll come up with some dialogue that explains how that would help the one-legged pilot handle the rudders. Thanks for your help.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Note that, if I'm right in my assumption concerning the 'load feel', then this would normally be adjusted / set on the ground, probably by the pilot who normally flew this particular aircraft.
Your one-legged, escaping pilot is unlikely to have the time to adjust this, even if he is aware of it, and would be more likely to counter rudder forces using the rudder trim tab, and possibly by throttle settings. He could very likely experience swing on take off, probably the least of his worries if making a hasty escape, and would then adjust trim once airborne and in relatively stable, controlled flight, all by 'feel' and growing experience with the aircraft.
Your one-legged, escaping pilot is unlikely to have the time to adjust this, even if he is aware of it, and would be more likely to counter rudder forces using the rudder trim tab, and possibly by throttle settings. He could very likely experience swing on take off, probably the least of his worries if making a hasty escape, and would then adjust trim once airborne and in relatively stable, controlled flight, all by 'feel' and growing experience with the aircraft.
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- #7
You're right. Hadn't thought of that. The small grass strip aux field with few Luftwaffe personnel and a JU-52 just sitting there, engines idling waiting for the crew, was just to good an opportunity to passby (ala Jim Garner in The Great Escape). Obviously has never flown one, but what cocky USAAF pilot wouldn't believe he could fly it. Hope you don't mind if I plagiarize. Thanks again.
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fubar57
General
Bob Hoover and Bruce Carr both stole Fw 190s to avoid capture. Neither made radio contact with Allied forces. They both flew as low as they could to avoid friendly fire and landed in friendly territory, Hoover in Holland and Carr in France
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- #10
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Also, the pilot would have to know the frequency he needed to contact, which is the job of the radio operator on a multi-engine aircraft, both allied and German (allied fighter aircraft had pre-set channels, selected by a push-button console in the cockpit).
As the Ju-52 comms radio was in the compartment behind the cockpit (if indeed it was fitted), your pilot wouldn't be able to use it, and fly the aircraft.
He'd also have problems when approaching allied lines. If he knew the 'colours of the day', and had the means to fire the correct sequence of flares, and flash the correct light sequence, he might avoid a hot reception. Either way, he'd need to fly low and land asap.
As the Ju-52 comms radio was in the compartment behind the cockpit (if indeed it was fitted), your pilot wouldn't be able to use it, and fly the aircraft.
He'd also have problems when approaching allied lines. If he knew the 'colours of the day', and had the means to fire the correct sequence of flares, and flash the correct light sequence, he might avoid a hot reception. Either way, he'd need to fly low and land asap.
Hmm, this sounds interesting. May I ask, why a Ju 52? Could it possibly be something else that our one legged hero escapes in, like a Fieseler Storch perhaps, which could be found everywhere around the extended Reich? Just a question and would be a definitely easier proposition to jump-in-and-fly than a Ju 52. Here's a description of the starting procedure by British test pilot Eric 'Winkle' Brown from his book Wings of the Luftwaffe (Hikoki, 2015):
"The drill for starting up the 725hp BMW 123A-3 nine-cylinder radials was rather like playing a Wurlitzer organ. First, the main battery had to be switched on and then the ignition set to the SPAT (retarded) position, the master ignition knob being pulled out. The three sets of ignition switches were next set to 1+2; the fuel switches were set to the priming position and the mixture levers under the throttles were moved down to the RICH position. The three sets of oil cooler levers were moved down to the CLOSED position and the priming pump was then actuated for the middle engine.
"After this dazzling prelude, the handle for the requisite inertia starter was depressed for 10-20 seconds and then pulled up. As soon as the engine fired, the ignition had to be set to the FRUH (advanced) position and the engine allowed to tick over at 700-800 revs until oil pressure registered. The revs could be gradually increased to 1,000-1,200, provided that the oil pressure did not rise above 7 atas. As soon as the oil temperature reached above 30 degC, the revs could be brought up to 1,400 and thus bring in the generator on the centre engine. With an oil temberature of 40 degC, the oil coolers had to be set OPEN. The two outboard engines were started as soon as the oil pressure registered on the centre engine. When all three had warmed up, the compressed air valve was turned on for brake operation and taxying could commence.
"The rigmarole for this early '30s transport aircraft to actually move certainly led me to appreciate the refinements that had been embodied by aircraft designed a decade later. Even relatively simple devices, such as automatic boost control and thermostatically-controlled radiator shutters, cut down the cockpit drill enormously, and the complex procedure called for by the old Junkers trimotor was perhaps best compared with the effort needed to operate a manual gear change after years of driving a car with an automatic shift."
Remember that the procedure in the second paragraph has to be done three times. His time just to get the thing going is going to take between five to ten minutes at least. I hope he's not being chased by bad guys.
"The drill for starting up the 725hp BMW 123A-3 nine-cylinder radials was rather like playing a Wurlitzer organ. First, the main battery had to be switched on and then the ignition set to the SPAT (retarded) position, the master ignition knob being pulled out. The three sets of ignition switches were next set to 1+2; the fuel switches were set to the priming position and the mixture levers under the throttles were moved down to the RICH position. The three sets of oil cooler levers were moved down to the CLOSED position and the priming pump was then actuated for the middle engine.
"After this dazzling prelude, the handle for the requisite inertia starter was depressed for 10-20 seconds and then pulled up. As soon as the engine fired, the ignition had to be set to the FRUH (advanced) position and the engine allowed to tick over at 700-800 revs until oil pressure registered. The revs could be gradually increased to 1,000-1,200, provided that the oil pressure did not rise above 7 atas. As soon as the oil temperature reached above 30 degC, the revs could be brought up to 1,400 and thus bring in the generator on the centre engine. With an oil temberature of 40 degC, the oil coolers had to be set OPEN. The two outboard engines were started as soon as the oil pressure registered on the centre engine. When all three had warmed up, the compressed air valve was turned on for brake operation and taxying could commence.
"The rigmarole for this early '30s transport aircraft to actually move certainly led me to appreciate the refinements that had been embodied by aircraft designed a decade later. Even relatively simple devices, such as automatic boost control and thermostatically-controlled radiator shutters, cut down the cockpit drill enormously, and the complex procedure called for by the old Junkers trimotor was perhaps best compared with the effort needed to operate a manual gear change after years of driving a car with an automatic shift."
Remember that the procedure in the second paragraph has to be done three times. His time just to get the thing going is going to take between five to ten minutes at least. I hope he's not being chased by bad guys.
fubar57
General
Good stuff Grant
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Food info Grant, and I, too, was wondering why a Ju-52, or indeed any multi-engine aircraft. After posting my last reply, I had a look at my copy of "Wings of the Luftwaffe", and also thought that a Storch, or Bucker Jungmann or similar would be a better choice - basic, simple, and quicker to start and get going.
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- #15
OK. You've caught me out. Story is actually a little more complicated. I just simplified it for expediency. Here's actual synopsis. Sorry for length.
First, this will be a sequel to my first book, 'The Group Commander' (free read on Kindle Unlimited). In sequel, hero is now wing commander. Time is week before D-Day. Wing Commanders don't fly missions, but senior leaders (Ike, Arnold, Marshall, etc) concerned on outcome, fearing blood bath on beaches, want some eyes (senior officer, combat experience, head on his shoulders) over the beaches to report what's happening, and hero reluctantly agrees. — Actually, not that farfetched. Major General Kuter, Assistance Chief of Air Staff (Plans) under General Hap Arnold, Chief of U.S. Army Air Forces, was in England prior to D-Day to study AAF readiness and morale for General Arnold. On D-Day, he took off in a single B-17 and flew across the Channel to get an advance look at weather conditions, determine bombing effectiveness, and to assess Luftwaffe opposition. Also, General Jimmy Doolittle, at the time commander of Eighth Air Force, having just dispatched 1350 of his bombers together with his entire fighter force to provide air support to the invasion fleet and attack enemy ground installations near the beachheads, was anxious for information. Not one to sit and wait, he commandeered a P-38 Lightning (chosen for its distinctive profile in the hopes he would not draw friendly fire) flew across the Channel arriving during the early moments of the landings. He flew back and forth over the beaches for almost three hours, assessing how the invasion was progressing, then returned to England where he provided General Eisenhower his eye-witness report on the invasion, beating Eisenhower's own intelligence sources by several hours. This gave me the idea for my plot.
OK. So hero takes a B-17 over and reports. Job done, he's heading home when attacked by 109 and badly shot up. Manages to make a wheels up landing on French coast near Merville. Immediately captured by SS from a passing convoy on the way to Caen. Shortly rescued by Jedburgh team working with French resistance. Leader is SOE operative known by hero (from 'Group Commander'). Area is heating up as Brits moving inland from Sword, fire fights getting close.
Deciding not to risk friendly fire, or re-capture by Jerry, SOE agent comes up with plan to get the entire crew home. From past mission, knows of Luftwaffe aux field (mainly to refuel and rearm fighters and lightly manned) not far away that has Ku-52 transport to resupply field. Plot: German speakers wear SS uniforms, drive American prisoners to field, commandeer transport — which is why a JU-52 vice a Fieseler Storch —. Arrive at field, convince field commander (young Oberleutnant recovering from loss of left leg below knee) hero has knowledge of invasion plans/objectives. Communications out. Imperative to fly to Rommel's HQ at La Roche-Guyon for interrogation. Ju pilot in hospital, so SOE agent as SS Officer convinces Oberleutnant (visions of knight's cross pinned on by Hitler himself) he can pilot Ju with hero as co-pilot. Soon after takeoff, Oberleutnant is made prisoner and hero plots course for home. As far as few personnel know, plane headed for La Roche-Guyon. No alert out.
This is as far as I've gotten. I've been trying to find out as much information as I can about the Ju-52 to be technically correct with takeoff and operation. Same re radio query. Could hero's radio operator make contact with any friendlies? Thinking basic course to head NE for coast, staying away from Allied forces as much as possible. Hug coastline toward Calais. Germans may be curious but probably won't shoot at one of their own aircraft. Cross Channel near Calais, head for Dover, land in first field in England. At 354 pages so far, so obviously book entails a lot more detail and adventures.
Suggestions welcome.
First, this will be a sequel to my first book, 'The Group Commander' (free read on Kindle Unlimited). In sequel, hero is now wing commander. Time is week before D-Day. Wing Commanders don't fly missions, but senior leaders (Ike, Arnold, Marshall, etc) concerned on outcome, fearing blood bath on beaches, want some eyes (senior officer, combat experience, head on his shoulders) over the beaches to report what's happening, and hero reluctantly agrees. — Actually, not that farfetched. Major General Kuter, Assistance Chief of Air Staff (Plans) under General Hap Arnold, Chief of U.S. Army Air Forces, was in England prior to D-Day to study AAF readiness and morale for General Arnold. On D-Day, he took off in a single B-17 and flew across the Channel to get an advance look at weather conditions, determine bombing effectiveness, and to assess Luftwaffe opposition. Also, General Jimmy Doolittle, at the time commander of Eighth Air Force, having just dispatched 1350 of his bombers together with his entire fighter force to provide air support to the invasion fleet and attack enemy ground installations near the beachheads, was anxious for information. Not one to sit and wait, he commandeered a P-38 Lightning (chosen for its distinctive profile in the hopes he would not draw friendly fire) flew across the Channel arriving during the early moments of the landings. He flew back and forth over the beaches for almost three hours, assessing how the invasion was progressing, then returned to England where he provided General Eisenhower his eye-witness report on the invasion, beating Eisenhower's own intelligence sources by several hours. This gave me the idea for my plot.
OK. So hero takes a B-17 over and reports. Job done, he's heading home when attacked by 109 and badly shot up. Manages to make a wheels up landing on French coast near Merville. Immediately captured by SS from a passing convoy on the way to Caen. Shortly rescued by Jedburgh team working with French resistance. Leader is SOE operative known by hero (from 'Group Commander'). Area is heating up as Brits moving inland from Sword, fire fights getting close.
Deciding not to risk friendly fire, or re-capture by Jerry, SOE agent comes up with plan to get the entire crew home. From past mission, knows of Luftwaffe aux field (mainly to refuel and rearm fighters and lightly manned) not far away that has Ku-52 transport to resupply field. Plot: German speakers wear SS uniforms, drive American prisoners to field, commandeer transport — which is why a JU-52 vice a Fieseler Storch —. Arrive at field, convince field commander (young Oberleutnant recovering from loss of left leg below knee) hero has knowledge of invasion plans/objectives. Communications out. Imperative to fly to Rommel's HQ at La Roche-Guyon for interrogation. Ju pilot in hospital, so SOE agent as SS Officer convinces Oberleutnant (visions of knight's cross pinned on by Hitler himself) he can pilot Ju with hero as co-pilot. Soon after takeoff, Oberleutnant is made prisoner and hero plots course for home. As far as few personnel know, plane headed for La Roche-Guyon. No alert out.
This is as far as I've gotten. I've been trying to find out as much information as I can about the Ju-52 to be technically correct with takeoff and operation. Same re radio query. Could hero's radio operator make contact with any friendlies? Thinking basic course to head NE for coast, staying away from Allied forces as much as possible. Hug coastline toward Calais. Germans may be curious but probably won't shoot at one of their own aircraft. Cross Channel near Calais, head for Dover, land in first field in England. At 354 pages so far, so obviously book entails a lot more detail and adventures.
Suggestions welcome.
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- #16
Forgot to say, Oberleutnant (specks English; many Luftwaffe officers did) performs pre-flight and goes through checklists and start engines procedures. We're at takeoff when hero and crew come onboard. Also, FYI, hero has flown Ju-52 before when Air Attaché at US embassy in Bolivia during war with Paraguay (Chaco War) over a disputed region of the Río de la Plata basin thought to be rich in oil.
Dialogue:
"Takeoff checklist."
Banner nodded.
"Release brakes," Brinkmann began.
Banner advanced the throttle controls to just above 25%. "Brakes released, engines at idle."
"Elevator Trim minus 1.5 degrees."
"Set."
"Rudder?"
Banner checked the trim levers by his knees. "Rudder Neutral."
"Flaps ten degrees."
"Set."
"Mixture."
"Mixture full rich," Banner replied as he pushed the mixture controls, located beneath the throttles, all the way down.
"Cowl Flaps and Oil Radiators?"
"Open."
"Tailwheel?"
"Locked."
"Advancing throttles to max power." Brinkmann gradually moved the bank of throttles forward, and Annie began to roll. "Speed."
"40 …. 50 …70 kilometers per hour." Banner called out as Annie picked up speed.
"Throttles at 90 percent." …. Brinkmann nudged the nose down just a bit to raise the tailwheel off the ground.
"90kmh." They were committed. Feeling a slight crosswind crab, he pulled the left rudder trim lever down to compensate.
"110kmh …. 125 … 130."
Brinkmann applied a slight backpressure on his yoke, the nose wheel lifted off the ground, and Annie took to the air, gaining speed as she climbed. At 5,000 feet, they leveled off. Banner zeroed the flaps, trimmed the elevators and rudder, then leaned the mixture and inched the throttles back to cruising speed. "180kmh"
"New heading 1-2-2 degrees," Brinkmann announced as he began a slow bank to the right.
"That is not correct, Lieutenant."
"Of course, it is. That is the heading to La Roche-Guyon."
"Yes, but that is not where we are going." Banner tuned in his seat and shouted back into the main cabin. "Mike, time to explain things to Lieutenant Brinkmann."
Koenig appeared in the cockpit doorway, his 9mm Walther P-38 in his hand, but it was not pointed at Banner as Brinkmann expected, but at him.
Dialogue:
"Takeoff checklist."
Banner nodded.
"Release brakes," Brinkmann began.
Banner advanced the throttle controls to just above 25%. "Brakes released, engines at idle."
"Elevator Trim minus 1.5 degrees."
"Set."
"Rudder?"
Banner checked the trim levers by his knees. "Rudder Neutral."
"Flaps ten degrees."
"Set."
"Mixture."
"Mixture full rich," Banner replied as he pushed the mixture controls, located beneath the throttles, all the way down.
"Cowl Flaps and Oil Radiators?"
"Open."
"Tailwheel?"
"Locked."
"Advancing throttles to max power." Brinkmann gradually moved the bank of throttles forward, and Annie began to roll. "Speed."
"40 …. 50 …70 kilometers per hour." Banner called out as Annie picked up speed.
"Throttles at 90 percent." …. Brinkmann nudged the nose down just a bit to raise the tailwheel off the ground.
"90kmh." They were committed. Feeling a slight crosswind crab, he pulled the left rudder trim lever down to compensate.
"110kmh …. 125 … 130."
Brinkmann applied a slight backpressure on his yoke, the nose wheel lifted off the ground, and Annie took to the air, gaining speed as she climbed. At 5,000 feet, they leveled off. Banner zeroed the flaps, trimmed the elevators and rudder, then leaned the mixture and inched the throttles back to cruising speed. "180kmh"
"New heading 1-2-2 degrees," Brinkmann announced as he began a slow bank to the right.
"That is not correct, Lieutenant."
"Of course, it is. That is the heading to La Roche-Guyon."
"Yes, but that is not where we are going." Banner tuned in his seat and shouted back into the main cabin. "Mike, time to explain things to Lieutenant Brinkmann."
Koenig appeared in the cockpit doorway, his 9mm Walther P-38 in his hand, but it was not pointed at Banner as Brinkmann expected, but at him.
Stealing aircraft was not all that unusual lol Heinz Schnabel and Harry Wappler escape attempt - Wikipedia
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- #18
Killiano92
Recruit
- 4
- Apr 20, 2020
Have you tried contacting any operators of airworthy JU52s for further research? I imagine most would be happy to help and lend maybe some more authenticity? List of airworthy Ju 52s - Wikipedia
also I will definitely be picking up a copy of your previous book!
also I will definitely be picking up a copy of your previous book!
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- #20
Thanks. I've looked into it, but the Ju has been flown/updated/modified by so many countries, I don't think there's an original 1940's WW2 model still out there. I've found numerous pictures of the cockpit of WW2 acft, but they mostly aren't big enough to identify instruments and controls, or how to use them. There's a nice U-Tube video on Ju-52 takeoff and landing procedures including identification of instruments and controls, but this is for an Air Combat video game. I'm sure it's reasonably authentic, but.... Also, found series of checklists covering everything from cockpit check before flight to securing the airplane after flight. Very detailed, but again, believe it's for video game, and I'm not sure how accurate. Even something as simple as sequence of starting engines ... checklist has it 2-1-3; video, 2-3-1; other source, 1-2-3. Maybe it's pilot discretion, but I doubt it. I'm probably way too far in the weeds, but I like to be accurate, whether I use the info of not.
Hope you like the book. Free read from Kindle Unlimited, but also available in paperback. 'The Group Commander', C.S. McLean.
Hope you like the book. Free read from Kindle Unlimited, but also available in paperback. 'The Group Commander', C.S. McLean.
