Jumo 222 cost Jumo 213 3-4 years of development?

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by wiking85, Feb 22, 2014.

  1. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/engines/jumo-213-what-took-so-long-39029.html#post1077567
    Is it true that had the Jumo 222 not been focused on the Jumo 213 could have been ready 3-4 years earlier? Assuming we mean the 1944 wide service introduction, that would mean about a 1941 introduction for the Jumo 213, though probably not at the same HP rating as the 1944 version. That seems a tad early IMHO, even considering the first version of the Jumo 213 was available in 1943 and the Jumo 222 did such up engineering resources that the needed to get ready.

    Technologically it doesn't seem that early though, considering that one of the major the major difference was the pressurized cooling system that Daimler had from the late 1930s for the DB601.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Jumo_213
    1942 seems like the more likely wide introduction date if we assume as similar start as historical happened. I guess we assume the Jumo 222 is either cancelled earlier.
     
  2. DonL

    DonL Banned

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    #2 DonL, Feb 22, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2014
    The Jumo 213 is a natural development out of the Jumo 211 with all learned issues about pressurized cooling system, higher RPM and more ata.

    The engine (bore/stroke) is absolute the same as the Jumo 211, the engine block differs through the cooling lines and minor other issues.
    Without a development of the Jumo 222, which is a complete other engine, also with other engineering problems, Junkers Jumo could start with the development of the Jumo 213 from the base of the Jumo 211 with high priority at 1938.

    As you said from the timeline, to me it is more a matter of fact, that we have seen the Jumo 213 introduced in mass production beginning or mid 1942 with near the original power rating without any advertisement and development of the Jumo 222.

    This would have significant impact on the FW 190 D and the Ju 88 in all variation, especially the Ju 88 G nightfighter series.
    The development of the "long nose" FW 190 was on a good way or near ready at 1942, so to my opinion we would have seen the FW 190 D9 beginning 1943 as also the Ju 88 with Jumo 213 engines.

    Such a scenario, what is to my opinion very real, would have the benefit, that the LW had at realtime the right answer to the Spitfire IX with the Merling 60 engine and a real performance nightfighter right at time.
     
  3. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    Most German aircraft designers preferred Daimler-Benz V12 engines over Junkers V12 engines. So if RLM decides to fund a larger V12 I think the DB603 engine makes more sense. Especially since DB603 prototype was running during 1937 at time of funding cancellation.

    My solution.
    Daimler-Benz does not get to compete in V24 engine program (i.e. no DB604). Instead DB603 engine program will be fully supported.

    Jumo 211 engine program is fully supported but there will be no Jumo 213. Instead Jumo 222 engine program will be fully supported.

    During 1937 it's impossible to know how good DB603 and Jumo222 engines will be. Funding both programs means Germany will not be putting all their next generation aircraft engine eggs in one basket.
     
  4. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    AFAIK the Jumo 213 was smaller, lighter, and more fuel efficient than the DB603, which hadn't reached 100 hours between overhaul in 1944 historically, unlike the Jumo 213, which was in fact pushing 2000hp with its 4 valve variant.
     
  5. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    Jumo 213 did not have a running prototype during 1937. So unless RLM has a crystal ball for viewing the future there's no way to tell how good Jumo 213 would be.

    If 1937 RLM does have a crystal ball they should make a beeline for DB605D engine and cancel everything else except jets.
     
  6. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    Nor did they have foreknowledge that the DB603 would work; for some reason historically in 1937 they didn't like the DB603's chances, so cut funding. IMHO it probably had something to do with the Jumo 222 offering a better HP output and better fuel consumption rate (theoretically), while the large displacement of the DB603 and high fuel consumption/power to weight ratio compared to other options made it too risky to work on. Historically it only got funding due to a glut of funding resulting from the start of the war and no downside to funding it as an outside potential backup.
     
  7. DonL

    DonL Banned

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    #7 DonL, Feb 22, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2014
    Your program is nonsense. The Jumo 222 is a total other engine as the the DB 603 and Jumo 213.
    The DB 603 and Jumo 213 are both natural further developments from a developed base. The Jumo 222 is nearly right out of the blue.
    THe DB 603 is an enlarged DB 600/601 from a pantograph and the Jumo 213 is a "tuned" 211.

    Without a Bomber B and a 2000 PS engine advertisement from 1937/38, there would be no development of the Jumo 222 and DB 604X.

    A reasonable advertisement would be a 1600PS engine 1937/38 to power the Do 217 and a four gondula He 177 both without any dive features and split the Ju 88 production from the beginning to a fast bomber (later nightfighter) without any dive features and a close support and naval strike aircraft with 60 degree dive features.

    The rest comes naturaly, because the FW 190 showed from the beginning it's potential and in fact the idea to power the FW 190 with a bigger V12 liquid engine existed already 1941.

    So with a a 1600PS engine advertiement 1937/38 both engines the Jumo 213 and DB 603 would be developed and in mass production 1942.

    All other ways are nonsense!
    The funny thing is a Do 217 without any dive features and a 1700/1800 PS engine at 1942 would be a at 550-570km/h and very near at a Bomber B advertisement.

    I have said this in this forum a hundred times the bird in the hand is better than two in the bush
     
  8. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    If that's the strategy then DB606 is the way to go for a bomber engine as it was tested during 1937 to 1938. Even the 1938 version produces over 2,000hp and that will only increase as DB601 engine becomes more powerful.

    You could cancel V24 engine, Jumo 213 and DB603. Just spend some money to develop a reliable DB606 "power egg" configuration which would be standard for any aircraft powered by this engine.
     
  9. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    It was an enormous and heavy engine that had a low power to weight ratio and never really worked right. It was a very poor substitute for a purpose designed V24 or a developed V12. Only the largest of aircraft would seriously handle it and it wouldn't fit in a power egg configuration.
     
  10. DonL

    DonL Banned

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    #10 DonL, Feb 22, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2014
    The DB 606 was nothing more then a german (sorry a Udet, Kesselring and Milch) total idiot idea!
    Totaly idiotic from maintenance, cooling, supply and investment, because all to get a He 177 to dive. Totaly idiotic.

    The He 177 was to my opinion the most advanced heavy Bomber till the B29 and with a four gondula "normal" equipment and the right engines (look at this thread or BMW 801) at 1942 outstanding to a wake up call!
     
  11. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    What about Bomber B program?

    If original program specifications require use of DB606 engine that's how Ju-288 and Do-317 airframes would be designed from the beginning. Bomber B could be in mass production during 1941 as you don't need to wait for V24 engine development.
     
  12. DonL

    DonL Banned

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    #12 DonL, Feb 22, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2014
    You are on the wong way, the advertisement of a 1600PS engine and a normal advertisement ( four gondula) of a Bomber A are essential.
    No He 111 since the introduction of the four gondula He 177.
    The Bomber B is nothing more then a SIFI project!

    The ideal LW

    Bf 109 from 1939 to the end of 1942 (DB 601)
    Fw 190 radial fighter at 1941 to the end of 1942 (BMW 801)
    From 1943 fighter bomber (FW 190 G) for ground support with radial engine.

    FW 187 1939-1945, long range fighter , heavy interceptor, destroyer and nightfighter (DB 601 and DB 605)

    FW 190 D-9 fighter from 1943-45 with Jumo 213 engines.

    Do 215 Kauz III nightfighter 1941-till end of 1942. (DB 601/DB 605)
    Ju 88 fast bomber/nightfighter and close support and naval strike a/c from 1940-1945 with Jumo 211-213 engines, with a focal point at 1942/43 to nightfighter and naval strike a/c with Jumo 213 engine

    Do 217 medium bomber from 1942-1945 with DB 603 engines

    He 177 four gondula heavy bomber and naval fighter 1942-1945 with DB 603 or BMW 801 engines.

    Full development of the Tank 152 H program and the Me 262 program at 1943.

    No other a/c's except Fw 189, Ju 87, Henschel Hs 129, Ju 52 and Ju 252 are required. I don't count the few naval a/c's!

    This would be a very tough LW and much harder to creak then the original!
     
  13. Aozora

    Aozora Well-Known Member

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    In other words the Germans should have invested all their funding and research efforts on one engine, while ignoring development of smaller, lighter and fundamentally more efficient designs. Then what? How many aircraft, particularly single-seat fighters, could be designed around the DB 606/610 series? What happens if development of the DB 605 series runs into serious difficulties? What then? DB 601, Ju 211 and jet engines was all that was left.

    And no, in 1937-38 the Germans could not rely on crystal balls, ouija boards, entrails of dead chickens or any other reliable means of forseeing the future; to have cancelled the DB 603 Jumo 213 would have been the worst possible choice.
     
  14. DonL

    DonL Banned

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    #14 DonL, Feb 22, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2014
    What I have forgotten:

    1. No Bomber B costs, the most investions of the LW at the whole war. Bomber B, was more then the Ju 88, Ju 87 and Fw 190A together.
    Perhaps I could also through in the Do 217 and we are also equal, the development payment of the Bomber B was 87-100 millions RM what is totaly out of space..............
    2. Normal costs of the Bomber A without the coupled engines.
    3. No idiot costs to the Bf 110/210/410 development.

    Natural development to all LW aircrafts................
     
  15. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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    Lots of people got carried away in the late 1930s with overly complicated engines. While it sounds easy to use existing banks of cylinder or rows or what ever and JUST use more of them it often took months if not years to get the "NEW" assemblies to work right. Other multi-cylinder engines also took MUCH longer to get to reliable standards than was thought initially. This goes for some British and American projects as well as German.

    The other MAIN obstacle you had in 1937-38 was fuel. What kind of fuel was going to be available in quantity in 1941-42-43. Without better fuel you need more displacement or more rpm or some of both.

    The British (Rolls Royce) got lucky and better fuels allowed the Merlin and Griffon to make the power originally contemplated for the Vulture. With the fuels of 1937-1940 there would have been no way for even the 36.7 liter Griffon to equal the 42.5 liter Vulture.

    Same for the Germans. The right answer in hindsight was to use the simplest possible that would get the job done. The Jumo 222 was NOT that engine.

    There may be some doubt as to wither the Napier Sabre was worth the time, money and effort spent on it. First run in 1938, passed type test in 1940 but only really became a reliable engine in late 1943 or early 1944.

    A big V-12 or a fast running medium V-12 might have been "low" tech fall back engines but probably could have been developed much faster than a golly-gee-whiz 24 cylinder of engine of very tight packaging. The 24 offered more power "sooner" (with poorer fuel) but developmental difficulties made the "sooner" an illusion.
     
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  16. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    So if the Jumo 222 is not started and the Jumo 213 is the priority, it reaches 1944 levels of readiness by Spring 1942 in this scenario. That's at 1750 PS with 87 octane fuel and 3 valve cylinders. The DB603 is not given priority. Instead the progress on the Jumo 213 means that not only is Jumo 211 production shifted to the 213, but the Ostmark engine facility starts producing them in 1943 when it was historically supposed to start producing Jumo 222s (there is no diversion in that direction in this scenario). So in 1942 its widely available, but still requires phasing out the 211, which won't be done fully until some time in 1943. In the meantime in 1943 the 4 valve version is phased in, which IIRC produced nearly 2000hp on 87 octane fuel. With C3 fuel and 4 valves it reached IIRC 2100 PS, which was about the output of the Jumo 222.

    So in 1942 we have the Ju88S and G, while the He 111 H23 is phased in. The Do217 is based on the Jumo 213. The He177 has four Jumo 213s. The Fw190D can enter service by 1943. Hypothetically the Ju87 could use the 213. If the Me410 still appears it is powered by the 213. There is massive standardization of engine production based on the various version of the Jumo 213, including supercharged versions for high altitude work. The Ta152 might even appear by 1944.

    We don't have the Ju288 project here, so there is a lot more resources to go around to all other projects; not sure if that still means the Ju188 appears, probably, though the Do 217 was the same thing, but better. Perhaps the Ju88 is allowed to stay the fast bomber, the Ju188 is skipped over and the 388 version appears instead, while the Do 217 and four engine He 177 become the replacements for the He 111 and Ju88, the latter of which remains as a specialized airframe (recon, night fighter, pathfinder, fast bomber, intruder, perhaps a heavy fighter/long range ground attack aircraft). By 1943 the stand version of the Jumo 213 is the 4 valve 2000 PS version, which has serious benefits for everything that uses it. With C3 fuel that is boosted to the 2200 PS range. IIRC the French were even able to get the Jumo 213 up to 2500hp post war, so there are interesting developments available by 1944-45. And that doesn't even factor in GM-1 or MW-50 boost.

    Anyway, by 1943 a very powerful Fw190D is available in limited numbers, but is able to handle anything the Allies have at high altitude until early 1944 when the P51D shows up and restores some parity for the Americans. By this time the Fw190D is available in larger numbers, which helps prevent the attrition that was experienced during Big Week. By mid/late 1944 the Ta-152 probably becomes available due to earlier availability of the engine and earlier progress with the Fw190D. This swings the technological advantage back in Germany's favor, but that alone is not enough to counter Allied numbers, but it makes gaining air supremacy and bombing Germany with impunity in 1944 impossible for the USAAF. The lack of as heavy of bombing in 1943-44 due to fighter quality and less attrition of the Jagdwaffe means greater production output and no collapse of fuels supplies or as bad of infrastructure impairment.

    With the more powerful engines and lack if resource diversion into the Ju288 project the Ju88G could appear earlier and be more effective in night fighting, perhaps even countering the Mosquito to a degree. Night bombing isn't as bad due to worse attrition of the RAF BC, thanks to Do 217s taking over more of the bombing role from the Ju88, which can focus on specialized roles, such as night fighter. That stops the stupid Do217 night fighter hopefully, while canceling the He111 by 1943 at the latest. Do217s can increase in output, while the He177 is actually functional by 1943 and can hit important targets in the USSR, including launching operation Eisenhammer and causing major damage to Soviet output, stemming the tide a bit in the East. Even if Soviet dams aren't busted, knocking out power stations in the M-UV area would seriously hurt Soviet production for at least 12 months.

    Of course the trick is to prevent the coupled engine He 177, which wouldn't necessarily be stopped in time by an early Jumo 213.
     
  17. DonL

    DonL Banned

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    @ wiking

    You would have both engines ready at 1942 to enter mass production, because as the Bomber B, this would also be an advertisement.
    At 1942 and 1943 contrary 1944 Germany would be able to change major mass productions.
    Also is the Jumo 213 very simular to the 211 (engine block etc...) so most of the original production facility of the Jumo 211 would change.

    Ostmark is an other issue. Original Ostmark should start production at 1942. In such a scenario it is decisive to which engine it would be tooled at 1941 and which subcontractors are choosed.

    I think to get enough powrfull engines for all a/c's both engines would be in major mass production.
     
  18. Denniss

    Denniss Active Member

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    Without dive bombing reqs the Do 217 may have gotten a larger wing plus some weight savings in the fuselage (no stiffening for diving) so in the end it could have gotten a far better bomber and night fighter. Same with the Ju 88 series (proper internal bomb bay).
    They could have gotten the Jumo 222 to work without these endless spec changes so 217 and 88 series could be powered by 1800-2000PS engines by 1943
    I assume the Jumo 213 got some features developed for/with the 222, especially the improved supercharging sytem.
     
  19. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    It's curious that Jumo-213A didn't received an intercooler. Jumo was already in 1941 IIRC outfitting the intercoolers on their Jumo-211J engines.
     
  20. Denniss

    Denniss Active Member

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    Junkers probably wanted to start mass production, the 213 already suffered from long delays.
     
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