Late war fighter competition

[MikeGazdik]

Okay, lets have a fighter competition of the late war PISTON engine fighters that either didn't quite make it in time, ( but were in production ) or saw VERY limited use. It should have been used or in production in 1945, we the Jury can decide if it should be included. The list that comes to my mind: Grumman F7F Tigercat and F8F Bearcat, F-82 Twin Mustang. Dornier Do 335, Hawker Seafury. Maybe the Supermarine Spiteful, but they were in very small numbers, not sure. Which makes me ask how many Do 335's were made or were they ever used in combat? Any others?

 

[Soren]

The Ta-152H powered by the Jumo 213EB takes the prize IMHO. With 2500 hp and a top speed of over 500 mph there was no other piston engined fighter which could rival it.

The F8F would be the best navy plane, although the Seafury is close to it IMO.

 

[red admiral]

Hawker Fury/SeaFury below 20,000ft

Supermarine Spiteful between 20,000ft and 30,000ft

Ta 152H above 30,000ft

 

[drgondog]

Okay, lets have a fighter competition of the late war PISTON engine fighters that either didn't quite make it in time, ( but were in production ) or saw VERY limited use. It should have been used or in production in 1945, we the Jury can decide if it should be included. The list that comes to my mind: Grumman F7F Tigercat and F8F Bearcat, F-82 Twin Mustang. Dornier Do 335, Hawker Seafury. Maybe the Supermarine Spiteful, but they were in very small numbers, not sure. Which makes me ask how many Do 335's were made or were they ever used in combat? Any others?

As Soren noted the upengined Ta152H with the Jumo 213EB would be a top candididate. The P-51H upengined with the 1650-11 (P-51M/cancelled) would have been a top candidate (~2200+hp) as either an interceptor or escort.

The MB-5 needs to be considered.

The Do 335 was an interesting airplane but fits more as a bomber destroyer or even ground attack but air to air against any of the other aircraft mentioned would not be a good place.

As always it depends on the mission you contemplate.

 

[red admiral]

The Martin-Baker MB.5 has stability and handling problems until 1946. Even then, it doesn't have great performance compared to contemporary aircraft. The low aspect ratio limits the high altitude performance somewhat. Fitting a 100 series Griffon would give a very nice fighter for low/medium altitudes, but I would expect the Fury to still be better.

P-51H with an RM.17SM (the high altitude 100 series Merlin) would be very fast, giving around 1500hp at 30,000ft instead of the 1600hp at 23000ft of the 1650-9. Probably between 2300 and 2400hp at low altitude depending on what it gets type rated at.

 

[renrich]

The F4U5 was close to production in 1945. Depending on source, 470 mph at critical altitude. Very good service ceiling. Not as fast a climber as F8F, but what plane was? Much better at high altitudes and better load carrier. Did not have the range of Mustang, but what plane did? Night fighter version was good. IMO could hold it's own with all fighters mentioned.

 

[MikeGazdik]

I know I have not listed several planes because I was tired. (still am actually) I could have included the P-47N. I think this may stack up well, or better than most others, against the Ta-152H. But the N model of the Thunderbolt saw plenty of action, I am not sure I should include it in this debate.

I know the F7f Tigercat could not operate efficiently at the Focke Wulf altitudes, but I think down below 25k it may be a serious force to be dealt with. I am not sure how it would stack up against a F8f Bearcat or Hawker at those altitudes though. If the Tigercat got a burst into anything it was likely over!!

What about Russian aircraft? A late mark of the Yak-9, maybe we can throw that into the mix, but again they saw plenty of use so maybe not.

 

[davebender]

This is good but let's take it a step further.
Luftwaffe: the allied intelligence files - Google Books

Kurt Tank, the designer of the Ta-152, when interviewed, claimed to have evaded siz Mustangs while flying the Ta-152, by virtue of its superior speed. He revealed that a planned version of the aircraft featuring a Jumo 222 engine would reach 500 mph.

The Ta-152 was in production during 1945 and the Jumo 222 engine was production ready with all the development work completed. Without the jet engine programs which have been ommited by this scenerio the Jumo 222 engine would probably have powered the Ta-152 from the beginning.

 

[Lucky13]

How about the Japanese and Italians? What was going on there?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well the Italians were out of it by then...

 

[Erich]

c'mon not again another what-if supported by nonsense.

 

[PJay]

On the subject of Do-335 production, the 'Wings' database says production totalled 23.

 

[Erich]

non operational protos, 3 flew flight patterns, one famous french ace claims he shot one down which is bogus

worthless junk in preparation for the inevitable. It is all conceivable the LW techs should of further inhanced the Me 262 with longer, larger fuel cells and redirected for aerodynamics the fuselage and canopy shape

oh what joyous fun

 

[B-17engineer]

On the subject of Do-335 production, the 'Wings' database says production totalled 23.

23 more than I thought.

 

[davebender]

Personally I doubt the Do-335 would see mass production. Aircraft already in service are better and less expensive to produce.

The Ta-152 was already in production and arguably more effective as an air superiority fighter. It is also considerably less expensive, using one Jumo 213 (or possibly 222) engine rather then two required to power the Do-335.

Newer versions of the proven Ju-88 powered by the latest 2,500 hp Jumo 213 engines will have a max speed over 400mph. Plenty fast even for intercepting B-29s at night.

 

[MikeGazdik]

Right. I don't want this to be an "X" plane competition. THIS HAS BEEN EDITED. Lets keep all of these plane in the mix.

As I see it right now; Ta 152
F7f
F8f
P-51h
P-47N
Yak 9U
Spiteful
Sea Fury
Do 335

That is some serious hardware! Any would be a fine aircraft. I think the sleeper may well be the Yak, it was a real performer.

 

[Glider]

The Hornet was in production at the end of the war but didn't enter operational service until March 1946, how does that fit in?

 

[MikeGazdik]

From what I remember reading, it sounded like a sweet plane. But I know very very little really.

Hey, no more silly rules. Hawker in, Ta 152 witht he high horsepower motor in. And the Do 335's in.

It is more fun to argue the more aircraft involved!

I think I will take the Grumman F8F Bearcat and whip everyones' tail feathers! It can; climb, roll, turn. And it has a radial for durability. Maybe not very long ranged, but fighter vs fighter I think it can take on any other and have more going for it than any other mentioned so far.

 

[Soren]

I think I will take the Grumman F8F Bearcat and whip everyones' tail feathers! It can; climb, roll, turn. And it has a radial for durability. Maybe not very long ranged, but fighter vs fighter I think it can take on any other and have more going for it than any other mentioned so far.

I'm sure the Ta-152 would give the F8F a run for its' money in any type of dogfight imagineable, and on top of this it has the range of the P-51. The Seafury is also a good match for it IMO.

 

[red admiral]

I'm not so sure about the F8F myself. The official performance figures don't seem very impressive;

From the SAC for the F8F-2 (with 4x20mm but with uprated engine over F8F-1)

386mph at sl, 447mph at 28,000ft max speed, 4465fpm climb at sl, 5.5min to 20,000ft

Hawker Seafury X

410mph at sl, 460mph at 18,000ft, 450mph at 28,000ft, 5640fpm at sl, 4.5min to 20,000ft

Maneuverability is more difficult to quantitfy but both were rated as being pretty good.