Lightning used as pathfinder aircraft in British service?

[Ascent]

I've just listened to the latest episode of the 'We Have Ways of Making You Talk' podcast where Al Murray is reading from the diary of Charles Owen who flew as a Pathfinder and Master Bomber on 55 missions. In it he talks about flying a Lightning as a Pathfinder aircraft with specific mention of both single seat and twin seat versions.

Now I knew the P38 had a two seat 'Droopsnoot' version which was used as a pathfinder but never in British service. A quick Google search didn't throw anything up so I was wondering if anyone here has ever heard anything about it?

 

[rochie]

seems it was featured in Scale Aircraft Modelling

from here Pathfinder P-38s For No.5 Group RAF Bomber Command 1944

The origin of the suggestion that the Lockheed P-38 Lightning might be suitable as a target marking aircraft which would be flown by a Controller (popularly referred to as a Master Bomber) is not known, but a P-38J-20LO, radio call number 44-23482 arrived at HQ 54 Base at RAF Coningsby in 5 Group Bomber Command on or about 7 July 1944. It would appear that this aircraft was obtained by means of a personal arrangement between the Officer Commanding 54 Base, Air Commodore ACH Sharp, and Major General FL Anderson, Deputy Commander, Operations of the United States Strategic Air Forces in Europe (USSAFE) with the intention of using it to conduct operational trials to determine the most suitable aircraft to be used by the Master Bomber in order to control bombing operations both by day and by night in competition with the de Havilland Mosquito and North American P-51 Mustang.
HQ 54 Base at Coningsby had formed on 1 January 1944 to exercise administrative and operational control of a clutch of three airfields and their resident squadrons within 5 Group. These consisted of Coningsby itself, which by the summer of 1944 was home to 61 Squadron, 83 Squadron and 97 Squadron; Metheringham, home to 106 Squadron and Woodhall Spa, home to 617 and 627 Squadrons. With the exception of 627 Squadron, which was equipped with Mosquitos, all the other squadrons were equipped with Lancasters. Whilst one document seen by the author stated that the P-38 was to be assigned to 627 Squadron, it would appear that the P38 actually remained at Coningsby for the whole of its operational career.
As far as is currently known, the P-38 was first flown operationally on the night of 14/15 July 1944 by the Master Bomber for an attack on Villeneuve marshalling yards to the south east of Paris during which the P38 released two 1000lb red Target Indicators from a height of 1000 ft. This sortie was not without its problems however as owing to inexperience with this new type of aircraft, which had led to inaccurate navigation, the Master Bomber arrived late over the target and was forced to hand over control of the raid to his deputy.
The second P-38 sortie took place on the night of 18/19 July 1944 when Revigny railway yards to the south east of Paris were the target. On this occasion no comment was made about any navigational diffiulties, but these had been anticipated right from the start and had been raised in a letter from HQ 54 Base to HQ USSAFE dated 13 July 1944. At the time that the P38 had arrived at Coningsby, HQ 54 Base had learned that a two seat version of the P-38 existed and was available in the UK. This led to the suggestion being made that this would be more suitable for the role than the single seater that had been supplied. The letter stated 'As you will appreciate, our marker aircraft have to fly fairly long distances by night and this entails very accurate navigation. The provision of a navigators compartment would, therefore be a great advantage.'
It was not suggested that the RAF be supplied with a second aircraft, but that a two seat P-38 would be exchanged for the single seat version if and when it became convenient to do so.
In their reply dated 19 July 1944, HQ USSAFE stated that the two seat version that had been referred to was one the USAAF had nicknamed the 'Droopsnoot'. It was extensively modified to permit the installation of a standard high altitude bombsight and was used to lead a formation of bomb-carrying fighters who all released their bombs at the same time as the Droopsnoot. Modification of these P-38s was being carried out in the UK but was a slow process and at that time, the USAAF was still trying to meet the allocation already established for the Eighth and Ninth Air Forces. At the present time it was therefore considered unwise to withhold such an aircraft from an operational unit unless it was absolutely necessary to do so.

Following the P-38's first two operational flights, HQ 54 Base raised the matter again in a letter dated 21 July 1944. The letter stated that whilst the difficulty of supply was appreciated, two operational sorties had now been undertaken by the P-38 and the pilot had expressed great enthusiasm for it, considering it to be superior to the Mosquito for this purpose and HQ 54 Base had formed the opinion that the type should become the standard equipment for Controllers and Markers.
The letter then went on to state that the P-38 suffered from the disadvantage of being a single seat aircraft without the necessary facilities for a navigator and for this reason, HQ 54 Base was anxious to try out a Droopsnoot in this role. In view of the shortage of Droopsnoots it was suggested that the RAF be allowed to modify the P-38 they already had themselves as 'It simply means moving the guns and fitting suitable perspex nose to it on the lines of your own Droopsnoot.'
The Americans, being well aware that the conversion would not be as simple as the RAF appeared to think it might be were not impressed with this suggestion and as a result, on 28 July 1944, HQ USSAFE wrote to inform HQ 54 Base that it would be more economical to effect an exchange of aircraft rather than let the RAF attempt to carry out their own modifications. Therefore arrangements would be made for the RAF to acquire a Droopsnoot in exchange for the P-38 they already had, which was to be returned to the USAAF at Burtonwood in due course.
Whilst awaiting delivery of the new Droopsnoot, HQ 54 Base continued to operate their existing P-38, using it to convert a number of Controllers to the type so as to be ready for the arrival of the Droopsnoot and to avoid excessive use when it arrived. The P-38 also continued to be flown operationally, its third sortie taking place on the afternoon of 2 August 1944 when it was used to control a raid on a Flying Bomb site at L'Isle Adam in Northern France. On this occasion, no external stores were carried.
This was followed by a similar raid on another Flying Bomb site at Bois De Casson around midday on 6 August 1944. On this occasion however, the P-38 returned early as the pilot was suffering from cramp. As far as is known, this was the last operational flight conducted by this P-38 whilst in RAF hands as a P-38J-20-LO Droopsnoot, radio call number 44-23517, had been delivered to Coningsby by 9 August 1944. The original P-38J-20-LO, radio call number 4423482 was returned to the USAAF at Burtonwood on 14 August.

 

[rochie]

be interested in seeing the rest of the article myself as i have a P-38 kit that might look good in that scheme !

 

[rochie]

more info from here 44-23517 | American Air Museum in Britain

RAF Air Commodore Alfred C H Sharp, a former Deputy Chief of Staff HQ 8th AF, was gifted this P-38 Lightning as his personal aircraft when he left to take up a new posting as 54 base commander. Initialy flown soley by Sharp. A 'Droop Snoot*' was lent to No 5 Grp RAF for a month, causing quite an impression, and upon its return to the USAAF, 44-23517 was sent to Langford Lodge for conversion. Used extensively on operations in the master bomber role until AC Sharp left Conningsby for a new posting at Northolt, later transferred to No 51 MU at Lichfield for diposal, thence onto Delft University, Netherlands in 1948 and finally back to the USAAF.

 

[rochie]

bit more info from Diamant who is a member on here but not seen for a while, he posted this on britmodeller !


The P-38J 44-23517, obtained from the 8th AAF in March 1944 by the CO of RAF Coningsby and used for experimental flights with bomber formations, akin to the "Master Bomber" role (where RAF Mosquitoes flew with bomber formations, observed the results of attacks, and re-directed following aircraft to change their aiming points). After some flights, it was decided to make some modifications to the aircraft, which was sent to the USAAF Depot at Langford Lodge for these to be carried out. The modifications included a transparent nose for a bomb-aimer/navigator, and VHF radios for short-range communication with the bombers. By this time the aircraft had been painted in PRU-blue overall, with RAF roundels and the letters "DPA" on the booms (but no RAF serial number, since the transaction to acquire the aircraft was "unofficial"), although USAAF 8 th AAF recorded it as transferred to the RAF. The British record card for this aircraft shows it arriving at Nª51 MU, Lichfield in May 1946 from RAF Northolt, and that it was shipped to the Netherlands in November 1948, presumably en route to a USAF Depot in Europe"
The P-38L (reportedly 44-24360, although that aircraft never left the USA) was borrowed while the original aircraft was being modified, arriving at Coningsby on 6th August 1944, but was returned to the 8th AAF by the end of August".
Unquote
Reference: 'Air Arsenal North America' by Philip Butler.
"Andy Thomas has unearthed this interesting snippet in connection with N5 Group. One of the Group's Bases was N 54 Base, controlling Coningsby, Methiringham and Woodhall Spa, under the command of Air Commodores Sharp. He had previously served as a liaison officer with HQ US 8th Air Force and when he left to assume his new position was "lent" a P-47 Thunderbolt for his personal use. The hefty fighter was not, however, to his liking and so it was exchange for a Lockheed P-38J Lightning 44-23517, which arrived in mid-summer. At this time Bomber Command was heavily engaged in tactival support to the fighting in Normady and N54 Base Lancasters were flying regular daylight raids into France. Air Cdre Sharp's personal P-38 was flown on several of these raids during the first week of August by Sqn Ldr Owen, though whether as a target marker or an "integral" escort is uncertain. On August 6 a second P-38 44-24360, arrived at Coningsby for a series of trials. Referred to as the "PB-38", it had a "droop snoot" glazed nose to house a Norden bomb-sight and bomb aimer and had provision for two long range overload fuel tanks under the centre section. For security reasons it apparently carried no serials, but retained USAAF markings. Owen flew the "PB" on a number of unspecified trials and it was flown on at least one operation - a daylight raid on Deelen by 94 bombers on the 15th by the irrepressible Wg Cdr Guy Gibson VC, who was then acting as the Base Air Staff Officer.
The PB-38 was returned to the USAAF by the end of the month, but it had left its marks on the staff at Coningsby, who took "their" P-38 to Langford Lodge where it was modified as a two-seater with a glazed nose. By the time it was collected in mid-September it had also been fitted with an advanvce suite of navigation aids, Loran and Gee, as well as twin VHF radio sets. When it returned to Coningsby it was also painted in PRU-blue overall with RAF roundels and fin flashes. The RAF`s first, and only, operational P-38 began markings operations immediately, Owen using it on the might of September 23 in raid on Germany. It was flown regularly on operations for a time - as, it is believed a target marker and bomber controller and was well liked by those who flew it.
Eventually, when Air Cdre Sharp left for a new appointment his "personal marker" went with him. After the war it was flown into the huge MU at Lichfield for disposal still in its unique RAF colours.
Unquote

 

[Crimea_River]

You da man Karl!

 

[rochie]

just piqued my interest and am sat at work with little to do so i googled away !
leaning towards doing my P-38 in bomber command colours now though !

 

[Ascent]

There's always something new to surprise you about WWII.

 

[rochie]

There's always something new to surprise you about WWII.

That is true

 

[83PFF]

By chance I was sorting through some family photos and searched a serial number and saw you had a recent post about a P38 with the RAF. I have a relative who flew many missions in the master bomber role with 83 Squadron PFF. Thought you may like to see the attached photo of P38 23517 at RAF Conningsby. Checking through the log book he did fight tests and Loran / Gee tests from October 1944 through February 1945 in 23517 so this photo is probably around those dates. During this time he flew in Mosquito KB401 for all master bomber ops.

 

[rochie]

What an incredible picture, thank you for sharing it

 

[fubar57]

23517 loaned Mar 1944 to RAF at Coningsby for target marking technique development. Cancelled from USAAF inventory Feb 23, 1945 and taken over by RAF, but never allocated RAF serial. Modified at RAF Langford Lodge, Northern Ireland, as a two-seater with glazed nose. Returned to RAF Coningsby painted in PRU blue and with RAF roundels. Used as a target marker and bomb controller by 5 Group. Moved with Air Cdre Alfred Sharp to RAF Northolt, England, when appointed to the 'Tiger Force' [for operations in the Far East post VE day]
Coded DPA. Later to 51MU, RAF Litchfield, England for disposal and returned to the USAAF. To Dutch AF and sent to Newport docks Nov 16, 1948 for shipment to Holland.
44-23517 | American Air Museum in Britain

 

[fubar57]

The Forgotten Fighters

 

[DaveyBoy74]

The Forgotten Fighters

Long time lurker, 1st post. Thank you for all this very usefull imformation, though that link seems to me to lead to a dead page, or I'm not having any luck with the link.

Dave.

 

[Snautzer01]

Hi and welcome.

Link is not dead.

 

[DaveyBoy74]

Hi and welcome.

Link is not dead.

Sorry for that, my PC must have been slow.

Dave

 

[Merlin51h]

Hi all, just new to the site and have also just listened to the episode of the 'We Have Ways of Making You Talk' podcast with the reference to the P38 as a Pathfinder aircraft. Searched Google and ended up here with all my queries answered. I also was unaware of the aircraft in this role with the RAF.

Brilliant!

 

[Oliver Owen]

By chance I was sorting through some family photos and searched a serial number and saw you had a recent post about a P38 with the RAF. I have a relative who flew many missions in the master bomber role with 83 Squadron PFF. Thought you may like to see the attached photo of P38 23517 at RAF Conningsby. Checking through the log book he did fight tests and Loran / Gee tests from October 1944 through February 1945 in 23517 so this photo is probably around those dates. During this time he flew in Mosquito KB401 for all master bomber ops.
View attachment 607237

Hello.... I am Charles Owen's son (my father mentioned at the start of the thread). He flew both Lightnings as Master Bomber from Coningsby and I'd love to know more about the above photo. Hard to recognise who is in the cockpit, but it might be my dad, in which case the other chap could be Don Bowes (navigator) who flew with him in Lancasters and Mosquitos.

Thank you

 

[Dave Carter]

To revive this thread, in his book "Halifax", K. A. Merrick states that on a daylight mission against Walcheren on 3rd October 1944, 192 Sqd., part of 100 Group (radio counter measures) flew two Lightnings, temporarily on the squadron's strength. Does anyone know where these aircraft came from, what markings they wore and what their role was?

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

The Bomber Command War Room summary has 6 P-51 sorties (5 day, 1 night) and 9 P-38 (6 day and 3 night) in 1944, no losses, for the war.

Looking at the 617 squadron history it is their Mustang. Raid Sheets and monthly summaries then (617 squadron via Dambusters by Chris Ward and Andy Lee)
25 June 1944, 1 P-51, 2x250 marker bombs, 0.2 tons, (2 spot fires)
4/5 July 1944, 1 P-51, 2x250 marker bombs, 0.2 tons, (2 Target Indicators)
6 July 1944, 1 P-51, 2x250 marker bombs, 0.2 tons, (2 spot fires)
17 July 1944, 1 P-51, 2x250 marker bombs, 0.2 tons, (2 spot fires)
25 July 1944, 1 P-51, non effective sortie, no bombs dropped.
4 August 1944, 1 P-51, effective, 2x500 pound smoke bombs, 0.4 tons [RAF rounded down from 0.45].(1 P-51, 1 Mosquito each dropping a smoke bomb) Raid sheet says 617 Squadron Mosquito was reconnaissance.

14/15 July 1944, 1 P-38, dropped 1x1,000 and 1x250 pound marker bombs, 0.6 tons.
18/19 July 1944, 1 P-38, effective.
1 August 1944, 1 P-38, entire raid aborted.
2 August 1944, 1 P-38, effective, controller.
3 August 1944, 1 P-38, effective, controller.
6 August 1944, 1 P-38, aborted, unit 627 squadron.
15 August 1944, 1 P-38, effective.
23/24 September 1944, 1 P-38, non effective.
5 October 1944, 1 P-38, effective, unit 54 base.

Next is the RCM P-38, which runs into less documents published about what they were doing and in the RAF case a tendency to not count them as the P-38 were part of a USAAF unit, nor do the 8th Air Force Summaries seem to note them. The RCM sorties do not appear to be in the Might Eighth War Diary for example. It almost seems each air force though the other was doing the sorties when it came to reporting them.

Secret Squadrons of the Eighth by Pat Carty reports starting February 1945 three P-38 droop snoots, one of which was 43-28479 which crashed on take off, another was MIA, flew six ELINT missions, pilots from 7th PRG, observers from 36th Bomb Squadron, Lieutenants Zeide, Holt and Stallcup, from Alconbury. Monitoring radar in Holland and the front line. The appendices say 8 P-38 missions from 17 March to 13 April 1945, and the 36th Bomb Squadron had four P-38 44-23146, 43-28479 (crashed 25 June 1945), 44-23501, 44-23515 MIA. The last night mission flown by the squadron was 2/3 January 1945. All mission were night 5/6 June 1944 to 23/24 November 1944, then mostly day missions in December. The photograph of the crashed 43-24879 looks natural metal except for the upper part of the forward fuselage and a band on the engine at exhaust height. Squadron letters R4 painted on the boom.

Mighty Eighth War manual by Roger Freeman reports in the summer of 1944 three P-38J droop snoots with special electronic detection equipment were prepared and assigned to 7th PRG, operating from RAF Foulsham August 1944 to March 1945, then they moved to Alconbury. Meant for lone high altitude sorties into enemy airspace, one lost over the North Sea in October 1944.

Looking at the September/October 1944 Bomber Command Day Raid Sheets, many of the days had 1 or 2 P-38 countermeasure sorties, variously listed under 100 Group or USAAF. On 3 October 1944, 2 USAAF P-38, 1 successful "A", 1 abort. The sorties are described as signals investigation/counter measures. One web site indicates some of the USAAF P-38 sorties were seeing if any V-2 were radio controlled.