LUFTWAFFE GROUND KILLS (1 Viewer)

Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules

fubar57

General
32,050
18,217
Nov 22, 2009
The Jungles of Canada
Did the Luftwaffe include ground kills as part of a pilot's score? I thought this was only an Eighth Air Force thing. I found a photo of Walter Oesaus's 109E, Werknr.1559 that show 39 kill markings on the rudder, 14 pointing downwards. The caption says that the downward pointing ones indicated ground kills. Thoughts?

Geo
 
The normal alternative explanation revolves around abschuss - 'shoot out' - were an aircraft has been separated from the formation and at least damaged. Seems to be roughly equivalent to the Allied 'damaged' or 'probable', or somewhere in between.
But virtually all sources I've seen appear to agree that it's an aircraft destroyed on the ground, and the 'arrow' is often a different colour to those used for aerial victories.
 
Here's the markings in question.

Capture.JPG


Geo
 
As it's a Bf109E, it's very possible that those presumed 'ground' kills were in the early part of the war, that is, from September 1939 to maybe May or June 1940. This would certainly have allowed opportunities to destroy, or claim destroyed, Polish, French, Belgian, Dutch and RAF aircraft on the ground. At a guess, I'd say the victory markings were an unofficial, personal tally.
I think I might have some more info somewhere, and possibly some clearer pics showing dates and national markings on the abschuss zeichen, not necessarily of this aircraft, which might add something - if I can find which book(s) they're in.
 
The normal alternative explanation revolves around abschuss - 'shoot out' - were an aircraft has been separated from the formation and at least damaged. Seems to be roughly equivalent to the Allied 'damaged' or 'probable', or somewhere in between.

Confusion here with 'herrausschuss' or separation, one of the categories used in the points system which evolved on the western front in the face of the US bomber offensive.

A pilot got point credits for an 'abschuss' or shooting down/destruction depending on the type. 3 for a four engine bomber, 2 for a twin and 1 for a single engine type. For a 'herrausshuss' the scores were 2,1 and 0. For 'Entgültige Vernichtung', or final destruction the points were 1, 1/2 and 0.

Downward pointing arrows usually represent a ground kill.

Cheers

Steve
 
You're right Steve - lack of sleep caused me to type Abschuss, rather than Herrausschuss.

I know the feeling :)

BTW the fact that many more points were awarded for separating an aircraft from its formation than for its final destruction demonstrates the effectiveness of the US defensive formations in the eyes of the Luftwaffe. The final destruction of an isolated (and often damaged) bomber was rated a relatively simple task.

Cheers

Steve
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back