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The Japanese didn't have much of a need for foreign engines. The Nakajima Homare used on the Ki 84 for instance could produce 2000hp yet was only 46 inches in diameter. The Bristol Hercules and CW R-2600 were both 55 inches for less power. The PW R-2800 maybe 52.5 inches and the BMW801 51.5 inches. late war the Japanese seem to have developed several functional turbo supercharger designs.
They seem to have had trouble mass producing efficiently. Their designs tended to emphasise manoeuvrability via big wings, which means nothing if your opponent is faster and doesn't want to engage. To truly exploit a speed advantage you need a fast bomber as well as a fast fighter. An Me 410 while slower than a Spitfire or Mosquito might be a real trouble maker for the slower Japanese if used to dive bomb shipping or IJN outposts.
Overall the IJN is simply much bigger and would win, just as the Heers masses Panther tanks would demolish the Japanese armour.
I'm just wondering how the Germans would manage to get heavy armor into the far east. We can't just say that the Germans manage to wander into China, set up massive factories and start producing an endless stream of Tigers, Panthers, StuGs and the like without being challenged by the Japanese at some point.
And the Japanese had small tanks because the predominant terrain dictated smaller tanks. If the Japanese felt the need to manufacture and deploy heavy armor, they would have done so.
The Japanese didn't have much of a need for foreign engines. The Nakajima Homare used on the Ki 84 for instance could produce 2000hp yet was only 46 inches in diameter. The Bristol Hercules and CW R-2600 were both 55 inches for less power. The PW R-2800 maybe 52.5 inches and the BMW801 51.5 inches. late war the Japanese seem to have developed several functional turbo supercharger designs.
They seem to have had trouble mass producing efficiently.
Their designs tended to emphasise manoeuvrability via big wings, which means nothing if your opponent is faster and doesn't want to engage. To truly exploit a speed advantage you need a fast bomber as well as a fast fighter. An Me 410 while slower than a Spitfire or Mosquito might be a real trouble maker for the slower Japanese if used to dive bomb shipping or IJN outposts.
Overall the IJN is simply much bigger and would win, just as the Heers masses Panther tanks would demolish the Japanese armour.
Masses of Panther tanks in Asia? That's a good one
Doubtful...The area in and around Indochina had a large French colony presence and they would want to avoid involvement. This would include Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam. Burma and several other areas were British. On the otherhand, Thailand (Siam) was aligned with Imperial Japan.If somehow they can work out their issues with the Allies then they could use Indochina, because without the war in Europe Japan is not going to move into there.
Doubtful...The area in and around Indochina had a large French colony presence and they would want to avoid involvement. This would include Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam. Burma and several other areas were British. On the otherhand, Thailand (Siam) was aligned with Imperial Japan.
In otherwords, allowing German access through their colonial territory would be taken as complicity by the Japanese and upset the "neutrality". If Russia allowed access to the far east, the "difficult peace" between Japan and Russia would be upset.
So Germany would really be having a hard time in getting any substantial assets into the China theater without upsetting the applecart.
The Germans would have had the same logistical problems in getting supplies into China that the Western Allies had. Maybe worse, because they wouldn't have India as a jumping-off point. Even if they could have used Russia's Trans-Siberian railroad, they wouldn't have had the capacity for an unfettered campaign in China.
As far as aircraft go. The zero would have likely held its own in 1-1 battles with the bin Bf-109E. The Zero was similar to but superior to the Curtis Hawk 75 that the French used successfully. The problem is numbers. The handful of pre-production zeros that fought in China so successfully in the summer of 1940 were all that were in existence at the time. Production was ramped up slowly, but by December 1941, there were only about 300 deployed. The IJA's Ki-43 (Oscar) was not even in service at that level. Those aircraft, and a handful of service-test Ki-44s were all the modern fighters that Japan had. By December 1941, the Germans had the Bf-109F and production models of the FW-190A.
Tactics, Tactics, Tactics....
In this hypothetical situation, if the Germans would have engaged the Zero below 250 mph, they would have been mauled, just like everyone else at the beginning of the war. Something tells me however, given this hypothetical situation, they would have learned very quickly!!!
The 1200~1600 HP class engines would be the ones to realistically look at for the early.mid war period. Namely the Mitsubishi Kinsei, the larger Kasei, and Nakajima's Ha41/Ha109. The only reason engines really came up was in regards to the Ki-60/61 and whether they'd use an alternate inline design or resort to an earlier counterpart to the Ki-100. (the Kasei would have delivered similar power much earlier than the Ha-112 the Ki-100 used, but was bulkier and heavier. A lighter engine in the 1200-1300 hp range should have been possible earlier (at least around the time the Ki-44 came online). Either way these sorts of developments aren't really going to be relevant until around 1942.The Homare was a troubled engine and wasn't able to generate near its spec in practice until 1944-45, but still only producing around 1800hp.
Nakajima Homare - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Given the timing, even STUG IIIs wouldn't be available initially, regardless of the ability to actually get them to the front lines. Panzer IIIs would be the only thing available, and even those would have been scarce if production hadn't ramped up (and ramping up production to support China is a bit different than planning to invade France).Also without a war with the Soviets there is not going to be a Panther design, rather a VK3001.
How different would that be than support (or merchant ships) originating from other officially neutral countries during early WWII? (particularly all the countries American firms were selling weapons to) Or various countries supplying Finland with military equipment during the Winter War. Hell, I'm not even talking about Britain/France/etc SELLING weapons to China, but allowing passage through their territory ... or at very least for allowing certain material transports to pass through, including any return payment from China.Doubtful...The area in and around Indochina had a large French colony presence and they would want to avoid involvement. This would include Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam. Burma and several other areas were British. On the otherhand, Thailand (Siam) was aligned with Imperial Japan.
In otherwords, allowing German access through their colonial territory would be taken as complicity by the Japanese and upset the "neutrality". If Russia allowed access to the far east, the "difficult peace" between Japan and Russia would be upset.
So Germany would really be having a hard time in getting any substantial assets into the China theater without upsetting the applecart.
And yes ... in jest or not, some supplies could be sent by submarine ... more so if dedicated transport submarines were emphasized ... and if they were allowed to stop at neutral ports as 'merchant ships.'Easy, they are shipped in on cargo submarines.
Lots and lots of cargo submarines.
Not to mention the MGFFs of the 109E would shred Zeros, Ki-43s, and Ki-27s even faster than the .50s on the P-40B/C. (and significantly easier than the Hurricane, Spitfire, and some of the French aircraft the 109 historically faced)Unfettered no, which is why I think they will only get a reinforced air corps into China. The Zero was significantly slow, so as long as they don't dog fight and learn as well as the Flying Tigers, which shouldn't be hard given that the LW was far more experienced at this point, they would do great.
With conflicts in Europe foregone or delayed indefinitely (along with political changes within Germany), development of the Fw 190 may have changed as well, on top of the Fw 187.The Fw190 would just dominate anything the Japanese produced. Later when the fighter-bomber variant shows up it can outrun anything the Japanese had until 1944-45.
The Jumo 210 powered 109 variants employed there were significantly lighter than the 109E and were much slower. That said, the situation with the Bf 109E compared to the Hurricane Mk.I should at least be relevant as well, at least in terms of turn ability and roll performance being compromised at high speeds. (though not quite the same structural issues as the Japanese fighters, aside from very early Hurricane I's having wing fabric deformation issues, they probably handled high speed dives better than these japanese fighters, and certainly took more structural damage) The 109E would similarly have better dive acceleration than any of those, hurricane included. (better level acceleration and climb compared to some of them as well)Given the same situation would exist with existing Japanese fighters prior to the Zero, they'd probably keep the same tactics learned in 1939-40 and apply them to the Zero. As it was the Soviet fighters in Spain had the same advantage and the Bf109 was able to dominate anyway.
The BF-110 still had a pretty limited range without drop tanks, just not as terrible as the 109. Speed was decent enough to run away from most early Japanese fighters and firepower would make it good in the bomber destroyer and ground attack roles at least. (and actually useful in the bomber destroyer role) The defensive armament might be a bit more deadly to IJA forces than it was against the British and French as well, especially given how long on target the lightly armmed IJA fighters would need to be to take down a 110) The ability to re-load MGFF drums in-flight was the sole practical advantage of the 110 over the 187, and as an early-war bomber interceptor it might have actually fared well over China.I'd just add that the Bf110 would be the first heavy fighter with range to be available, which would be faster than any Japanese aircraft other than the Zero until the F-series is available. It would have serious trouble with the Zero, but that wouldn't really be that much of an issue until 1941-42, but by then the F-series is available. It would be a solid fighter-bomber and long range fighter/bomber destroyer until enough Zeros show up.
Better than the Fw190. With external tanks that increased to 1500 miles.Range: 1300 km
I am not sure what advantage the DB601's supercharger had over the Japanese engines in 1939-41.
The early DB 601 engines had critical (FTH) altitudes of 3700-4900 meters. Granted that beats the 9 cylinder radials by a fair amount but the early single speed 14 cylinder radials had similar FTLs. Ki-43-I was 3400 meters and the similar engine in the A6M2 was rated at 4200 meters. Engine in the early service trial Ki 44s was rated at 3700 meters ( 1260hp). Engines in the early Ki 21 bombers (in service 1938?-1940) were good for 4000 meters. Single speed Kinsei radials were good for up to 1070hp at 4200 meters although that cut take-off power to 930hp compared to the 1000hp take-off but 990hp at 2800 meter model.
DB601 didn't really have a very good supercharger. Putting a powerful engine in a light airplane can give good altitude results but then that's what the Japanese were doing anyway.
Given the same situation would exist with existing Japanese fighters prior to the Zero, they'd probably keep the same tactics learned in 1939-40 and apply them to the Zero. As it was the Soviet fighters in Spain had the same advantage and the Bf109 was able to dominate anyway.
The 601N had a rated altitude of 4900m in 1940, while the two speed Sakae 21 didn't show up until April 1942 in limited numbers. That gives the Me109 a pretty solid height advantage, especially with the F-series' other serious advantages.