Luftwaffe vs. IJA

Shortround6 · Apr 19, 2015

A site with information on the "hump" operation.

FLYING THE HUMP

A few highlights;

"In July, 1945, 77,306 tons of supplies were flown over the Hump to China. At that time the ATC was operating 622 aircraft, supported by 34,000 U. S. military personnel and 47,000 civilian personnel."

That is an average of 124 tons per plane per month. And at this point many/most of the flights were going over the southern "low hump" with most missions not going over 12,000ft. This total tonnage may include cargo flown in by other commands on occasion.

Cost was----" Official records of Search and Rescue were closed at the end of 1945. Their final records showed 509 crashed aircraft records "closed", and 81 lost aircraft still classified as "open". Three hundred twenty-eight (328 ) of the lost aircraft were ATC. Thirteen hundred fourteen (1,314) crew members were known dead, 1,171 walked out to safety, and 345 were declared still missing."

Granted the "high hump (15-16,000ft)" had not only high altitude but bad weather conditions and a longer, more circuitous route may have lost fewer aircraft per mile flown but at the cost of thousands more miles flown per ton of of cargo delivered.

wiking85 · Apr 19, 2015

I think its pretty conclusive that "The Hump" is not a viable supply option for Germany in 1940 or beyond. Nor is sea transport once the coast is seized by mid-1940. So that leaves either the USSR or French Indochina. The only option for shipping is Haifong, which was a rail link with China that the Japanese cannot attack without triggering war with France and Britain.

wiking85 · Apr 19, 2015

Maps of the connections between Russia and China:

http://www.emersonkent.com/images/china_1944.jpg
map-japadvancesinchina1938-39.jpg Photo by CougarGA7 | Photobucket

Kryten · Apr 19, 2015

Shortround6 said:
A site with information on the "hump" operation.

FLYING THE HUMP

A few highlights;

"In July, 1945, 77,306 tons of supplies were flown over the Hump to China. At that time the ATC was operating 622 aircraft, supported by 34,000 U. S. military personnel and 47,000 civilian personnel."

That is an average of 124 tons per plane per month. And at this point many/most of the flights were going over the southern "low hump" with most missions not going over 12,000ft. This total tonnage may include cargo flown in by other commands on occasion.

Cost was----" Official records of Search and Rescue were closed at the end of 1945. Their final records showed 509 crashed aircraft records "closed", and 81 lost aircraft still classified as "open". Three hundred twenty-eight (328 ) of the lost aircraft were ATC. Thirteen hundred fourteen (1,314) crew members were known dead, 1,171 walked out to safety, and 345 were declared still missing."

Granted the "high hump (15-16,000ft)" had not only high altitude but bad weather conditions and a longer, more circuitous route may have lost fewer aircraft per mile flown but at the cost of thousands more miles flown per ton of of cargo delivered.

Good grief, 502 aircraft and 1314 confirmed dead!
That's probably a more dangerous activity than being a bomber crewman in the Battle of Britain!

bobbysocks · Apr 19, 2015

the german "blitzkreig" concept would be no existant in a war like this. they would have no choice but to model their airforce and army along different tactics and strategies.

wiking85 · Apr 20, 2015

bobbysocks said:
the german "blitzkreig" concept would be no existant in a war like this. they would have no choice but to model their airforce and army along different tactics and strategies.

I don't think that the Germans would change their overall tactics based on the Chinese experience, given that they recognized that the SCW wasn't enough of a modern experience to alter their doctrine. Also I highly doubt they could get any ground forces in unless perhaps France agreed to supply them and transit them. As we can see from the map above they either need the French to allow supply or the Soviets and in the latter case it would only be brought so far by rail, the rest would need to be motored in over hundreds of miles, which would be far too much for ground force supply and would seriously limit air force supply. Basically the French are needed to get supplies in. Maybe if the Germans are able to appeal to the US to get the French to allow supplies in, or get the US to sell to China, which in turn is used by the Germans to get around the French's issues with Germany?

Shortround6 · Apr 20, 2015

You also had two "China's" even before WW II started. The Communist party and the Nationalists (or what would become the Nationalists) plus more than few somewhat independent warlords. An outside country sort of had to pick which one they were going to ally with and plan supply routes accordingly as they two groups did NOT share well even when co-operating to defeat the Japaneses. Trying to transit hundreds of miles of the other groups territory could mean large percentages of the supplies going missing. The Communists tended to be in the North and the Nationalists in the South. In part perhaps because the Communists were supported more by the Russians? There tended to be a fair amount of hording of supplies to be used against each other rather than the Japanese.

wiking85 · Apr 20, 2015

Shortround6 said:
You also had two "China's" even before WW II started. The Communist party and the Nationalists (or what would become the Nationalists) plus more than few somewhat independent warlords. An outside country sort of had to pick which one they were going to ally with and plan supply routes accordingly as they two groups did NOT share well even when co-operating to defeat the Japaneses. Trying to transit hundreds of miles of the other groups territory could mean large percentages of the supplies going missing. The Communists tended to be in the North and the Nationalists in the South. In part perhaps because the Communists were supported more by the Russians? There tended to be a fair amount of hording of supplies to be used against each other rather than the Japanese.

After the long march the ChiComs were pretty well smashed and barely surviving. Their powerbase was well outside the Eastern or Southern supply routes. The KMT controlled bother pretty well.

Just Schmidt · Apr 22, 2015

Koopernic said:
Freya was demountable and participated in the 1938 Sudeten crisis in Czechoslovakia and one was flown by Ju 52 and erected during Fall Gelb, the invasion of Norway, that arose when Vidkund Quisling informed Hitler that the Norwegian Cabinet had decided to surrender to Britain when the UK's pre-emptive strategic invasion of Norway occurred.

Fall gelb was the invasion of the low contries and France, the code name for the invasion of Denmark and Norway was weserübung. Quisling did warn Hitler that he feared a Norwegian surrender to the allies, should they invade. However, Hitler didn't let himself persuade at that time though others, like Raeder, pressed for an occupation of Norway. The allies didn't plan to invade more of Norway than Narvik, and the railroad from there to the Swedish ore mines. Like the Germans, they assumed the Norwegians (and the Swedes), wouldn't resist invasion from anyone. In any event, it wasn't a pure british invasion, it was as much a french one. Usually, the Altmark affair is seen as the event that swayed Hitler. There certainly hadn't at that time been made any decision in the Norwegian cabinet that they would surrender to a british, or any, invasion.

Anyway the Norwegian government didn't know that the alliea planned a pre-emptive strike, or for certain that the german invasion was underway. At least not until thye day before 9th of april. Even then, it was unclear who were entering Norwegian territorial waters. As so many early war german adventures, it was hard to fathom that germany would dare undertake such an operation. The role aircraft would play was only anticipated by few.

Now the information about the rader set may be correct, but with so many other errors in the source, I'm willing to doubt it. Then again, your source may have information that is not generally known to Norwegian historians.

soulezoo · Apr 23, 2015

Shortround6 said:
Actually the Japanese have a better chance of "invading" California. Stick a bunch of troops on merchant ships, sail to California and unload/invade (best done before Pearl Harbor). Actually being able to sustain the invasion force/succeed is another story.

Not if John Belushi has anything to say about it... *wink*

kool kitty89 · May 23, 2015

Maybe a throw-away idea, but the thought came up regarding using Zeppilins for long-range transport hauling. With WWII never starting, and a different German government in power, the Zeppelin program may not have been dismantled. Logistically speaking (at least in terms of fuel, range, and operational costs) airships break away from a lot of the limiting factors for large, long-range heavier than air transports.

wiking85 · May 23, 2015

kool kitty89 said:
Maybe a throw-away idea, but the thought came up regarding using Zeppilins for long-range transport hauling. With WWII never starting, and a different German government in power, the Zeppelin program may not have been dismantled. Logistically speaking (at least in terms of fuel, range, and operational costs) airships break away from a lot of the limiting factors for large, long-range heavier than air transports.

Their transport capabilities are pretty minimal and they are extremely dangerous with the lack of Helium to make them safe. Plus they take a long time to take a minimal load the necessary distance and require specific infrastructure at both ends of the trip.

GrauGeist · May 23, 2015

I you think the weather was harsh on the transports and bombers flying the "hump", just imagine how a Zepplin would do in that situation...

Shortround6 · May 23, 2015

I think you have been reading Greatheart Silver one too many times.

As I understand it (and I could be way wrong on this) the airships greatest load lifting ability is at sea level and falls off with altitude. World record for altitude on a commercial zeppelin flight was 5500ft. What route are you using into China?

Luftwaffe vs. IJA

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