Luftwaffe Wonder Weapons

[16KJV11]

Would Hitler's Wonder Weapons if utilized earlier properly, have turned the tide in the over all direction of the war?
I think it would only would have prolonged the war b/c the allies were working on their own jet fighters and the Red hoardes were overwhelming coming from the east.

 

[HoHun]

Hi 16KJV11,

>Would Hitler's Wonder Weapons if utilized earlier properly, have turned the tide in the over all direction of the war?

Well, what's "properly"? And what do you count as "Wonder Weapon"?

If it would have been possible to build the Me 262 in numbers from mid-1943 on, that would have made a major impact on the conduct of the air war in the West, perhaps even making a 1944 invasion impossible.

(The Me 262 and the Jumo 004A was technologically ready, but the engine could not be mass-produced due to a lack of rare metals. Re-designing the engine for the available materials is what delayed the Me 262 for so long.)

Williamson Murray made a good point regarding the V-1 - it would have been much more useful as a guide surface-to-air missile than as a ballistical surface-to-surface missile. However, it's doubtful whether it would have been available in time to make a difference, even if it had been planned as a SAM from the beginning.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[SoD Stitch]

Would Hitler's Wonder Weapons if utilized earlier properly, have turned the tide in the over all direction of the war?
I think it would only would have prolonged the war b/c the allies were working on their own jet fighters and the Red hoardes were overwhelming coming from the east.

Yes and no; as you said, it is doubtful they could've actually won the War, given that the Allies were more or less working on the same projects as the Germans. At most, I think effective "wonder weapons" would've pushed the War, maybe, into '46, but that's about it. It must be remembered that the one "wonder weapon" the Germans didn't have was the atomic bomb; I think that, in the end, the atom bomb would've been the deciding factor in the ETO even with effective German "wonder weapons".

I love reading about and studying all of the various German "wonder weapons", some of which were years ahead of their time; but, in the end, it didn't make much difference, because the Germans did not have a coherent, effective method of utilizing them.

 

[Konigstiger205]

Well you could compare the german "wonder weapons" development with their advance on the eastern front in 1941: "too much for too few to cover"...they simply had to many projects working at the same time and too little resources for that...

 

[bigZ]

The Atom Bomb trumps Hitlers Wonder weapons everytime. Unless the Germans developed the bomb, wonder weapoms at best could have extended the duration of the war by months only.

The V-2 weapons project was a huge drain on man-hours, technicians and development in key areas like instrumentation. The V-1 was more effective for the amount of reasources it used. Mostly in tying up allied resources in intercepting them.

 

[magnocain]

i think u will find the link in my signature usefull

 

[16KJV11]

Hi 16KJV11,

>Would Hitler's Wonder Weapons if utilized earlier properly, have turned the tide in the over all direction of the war?

Well, what's "properly"? And what do you count as "Wonder Weapon"?
If it would have been possible to build the Me 262 in numbers from mid-1943 on, that would have made a major impact on the conduct of the air war in the West, perhaps even making a 1944 invasion impossible.

(The Me 262 and the Jumo 004A was technologically ready, but the engine could not be mass-produced due to a lack of rare metals. Re-designing the engine for the available materials is what delayed the Me 262 for so long.)

Williamson Murray made a good point regarding the V-1 - it would have been much more useful as a guide surface-to-air missile than as a ballistical surface-to-surface missile. However, it's doubtful whether it would have been available in time to make a difference, even if it had been planned as a SAM from the beginning.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

One instance of not using the weapons properly (if I have my facts right that is) was Hitler's initial insistance on using the ME 262 as a bomber instead of a fighter.
Also, I believe that the ME 262 could have been in operation far sooner than it was.

 

[16KJV11]

The Atom Bomb trumps Hitlers Wonder weapons everytime. Unless the Germans developed the bomb, wonder weapoms at best could have extended the duration of the war by months only.

The V-2 weapons project was a huge drain on man-hours, technicians and development in key areas like instrumentation. The V-1 was more effective for the amount of reasources it used. Mostly in tying up allied resources in intercepting them.

Question of the year: Would the Allies have used "The Bomb" on Nazi Germany?
Just an idle question, but intriguing to me.

 

[Haztoys]

Question of the year: Would the Allies have used "The Bomb" on Nazi Germany?
Just an idle question, but intriguing to me.

"I" say no ..At the time "The Bomb" was ready to be used ..The Allieds were closing in on Germany on one side ..And the Russians on the other... It was only a mater of time till the war was over for Germany... But I'm sure at one "point" they were thinking about it...

I hope that this does not upset some people here ..But America sort of looked at the Japanese as sub human at that time ...And the Germans as human...So it was EZer to drop it on the Japanese then the Germans... ..Its in line with the putting of the Japanese in camps in America ..But not the Germans...My American for fathers could be pigs at times..And America was more up set at the Japaneses at the time do to Pearl Harbour... But that just my take on it...

And I don't "think" we had but two any how ...I read that If the Japanese had not gave up .. We did not have any more Nukes to use...Anyone know how many nukes we did have at that time...

 

[Instal]

If it would have saved thousands or perhaps tens of thousands of allied soldiers lives then I certainly hope so.

 

[plan_D]

I thought the U.S had two nuclear bombs, and both were used. And I've stated previously that the U.S would not have used the 'bomb' on Germany, for much the same reason as Haztoy has pointed out.

If Germany had been able to deploy the Me 262 earlier, by a year, then the Allied effort above Nazi Europe's skies would have been blunted to a practical standstill. It would be scary to imagine Schweinfurt followed up by swarms of Me 262s.

The 262 would have been the most wonderful of the wonder weapons, and the most deadly to the Allied war effort. And I must add that Hitler's request to have it as a bomber did not delay it's production.

 

[Njaco]

The nuke option has been covered a little in a previous thread on nuking Russia. But weren't the Germans also producing the A-Bomb? The problem was the heavy water needed.

I believe a Commando raid was made on a facility in Norway that produced the heavy water or at least some part needed for the bomb.

 

[plan_D]

British SOE attempted on the Vemork Heavy Water plant in November 1942 called Operation Freshman. The operation was a disaster when the bomber towing the glider crashed into a mountain in low visibility. Thirty-four Royal Engineers of 1st Airborne Division died, along with the bomber and glider crew.

In Feb. 1943 Operation Gunnerside had an all Norweigan attack against the Rjukan plant. It succeeded and destroyed 500 kg of Heavy Water.

On 16th Nov. 1943, the USAAF sent 388 B-17s and B-24s against the Rjukan plant that had been repaired. They caused minimal damage. It did, however, convince the Germans to move.

On 20th Feb. 1944, Norweigan resistance made a final and successful attack against the ferry D/F "HYDRO" which was carrying the remaining Heavy Water to Germany.

I don't know how close Germany was to making a nuclear weapon, I think it's a large matter of debate on these boards.

 

[HoHun]

Hi 16KJV11,

>Also, I believe that the ME 262 could have been in operation far sooner than it was.

From the strength reports at The Luftwaffe, 1933-45, listing the Me 262 aircraft with the different units:

07/1944: 6 @ KG 51
08/1944: 20 @ KG 51
09/1944: 32 @ KG 51
10/1944: 52 @ KG 51, 5 @ KG 54
11/1944: 72 @ KG 51, 8 @ KG 54, 38 @ JG 7
12/1944: 100 @ KG 51, 20 @ KG 54, 14 @ JG 7, 23 @ EJG 2, 6 @ Kommando Braunegg

(Note that Kommando Nowottny is not listed until it becomes JG 7.)

So one could say that there was a delay of about three to four months in getting the Me 262 into service as a fighter.

However, note that the strength of JG 7 drops after its initial establishment - they transferred 15 aircraft to "different units", which I believe must have meant EJG 2 primarily which was a jet fighter conversion unit. From single-engine piston fighter to twin-engine jet fighter it was a great step, and the Luftwaffe found that the pilots had to be re-trained in order to be able to use the jets properly.

The materials question, on the other hand, had introduced a delay of about one year. It's hard to quantify that exactly since it was clear from the beginning that the Jumo 004A was not suitable for mass production, but as a rough benchmark, we can look at the first flight with Jumo 004A engines in July 1942 compared to the first flight with Jumo 004B engines in October 1943.

(With regard to the SAM question, I have to correct myself: Williamson Murray of course considered the V-2 as a possible SAM, not the V-1!

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[16KJV11]

Wasn't Heinkel experimenting with a jet airplane as early as 1940-41, maybe earlier?
I know the Italians were (Caproni Campini?)
One wonders the result if Hitler actually put the concept pedal to the metal.

 

[Erich]

HoHUn JG 7 did not have 38 262's in November 44 as you had the only form up of III. gruppe which was a long drawn out process, JG 7 was still trying to enlist former prop driven pilots from other Geschwaders besides the slow absorption of Nowotnys unit after he was shot down and killed

 

[HoHun]

Hi Erich,

>HoHUn JG 7 did not have 38 262's in November 44 as you had the only form up of III. gruppe which was a long drawn out process, JG 7 was still trying to enlist former prop driven pilots from other Geschwaders besides the slow absorption of Nowotnys unit after he was shot down and killed

Hm, I'm relying on this strength report: Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen, III./JG7

It clearly lists 38 aircraft on strength for III./JG 7 at the first of the month. What sources are you going from?

(I imagine that these 38 might have been assigned to the unit "on paper", perhaps not being actually available on the unit airfield. That the number goes down significantly in December, with a lot of aircraft transferred to "other units", could also mean they were not immediately available for operations, so I'm ready to believe you that JG 7 couldn't actually put up all of these aircraft for combat.)

Since I found another Me 262 in the strength reports listed as "Me 282", here is a corrected version of the timeline:

07/1944: 6 @ KG 51
08/1944: 20 @ KG 51
09/1944: 32 @ KG 51
10/1944: 52 @ KG 51, 5 @ KG 54
11/1944: 72 @ KG 51, 8 @ KG 54, 38 @ JG 7
12/1944: 100 @ KG 51, 21 @ KG 54, 14 @ JG 7, 23 @ EJG 2, 6 @ Kommando Braunegg

For the delay through the Blitzbomber orders, I'd still say it's three to four months as otherwise, JG 7 might have been in its confused status in 07 to 08/1944 instead of the historical 11 to 12/1944.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[Njaco]

HoHun, I'm with Eric, check this site.

Luftwaffe in Norway

On Novemeber 30, 1944:
Stab./JG 7 had no Me 262s
I./JG 7 had no Me 262s
III./JG 7 had 14

By December 31, 1944:
Stab./JG 7 had no Me 262s
I./JG 7 had 1 Me 262A-1 and 2 Me 262A-2
III./JG 7 had 16 Me 262A-1


It goes the same for the other units with Me 262s. From Dr. Prices book, "The Luftwaffe Data Book" page 130, "Three types of jet aircraft were in service - the Me 163, Me 262 and the Ar234. Less than a hundred of these advanced machines were in service with front-line units, however, and they had yet to make any serious impact on operations." And he is talking about January 1945. I can only imagine that the situation was worse before this time before production and pilots were available.

 

[HoHun]

Hi Njaco,

>Luftwaffe in Norway

Hm, this site relies on the same basic data as the site I quoted, and if you look closely, the same 38 Me 262 appear on strength of III./JG 7 on that site, too.

The only difference is that the site you linked lists it in the column "Total strength 31.10.44", while the one I linked uses "Istbestand Monatserster", which means "Actual Strength on the First of the Month".

So your figures actually confirm my figures

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[Erich]

you guessed it .............all on paper as a propaganda tool at first. ops did not start for JG 7 really till late December as it was in process of collecting more pilots and day fighter trials-training in their own backyard.

be careful with the air returns as it again is not verified 100 % via the sig Norway or Michael H's web-site. what looks good is just that-it is on paper only and many times not reality.

It is very hard to get a clear picture of what happened when Nowotnys band dissolved becoming cadre for JG 7, a stab had not even really formed yet for the hot shot jet fighter unit early on, I./JG 7 was delayed and only III. gruppe was performing test and alter operational functions. II./JG 7 was non-existant through the war but still provided a paper work propaganda suit to fool Allied intel and it worked