LW, who led the missions, newbie officer of veteran NCO?

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by kettbo, May 6, 2014.

  1. kettbo

    kettbo Member

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    #1 kettbo, May 6, 2014
    Last edited: May 7, 2014
    I seem to recall a young Chuck Yeager as a relative NEWBIE LT leading the missions due this good eyesight and tactical sense (or I have merely lost my mind)
    from The Right Stuff or YEAGER, IIRC.

    In the LW (edit) there were the enlisted pilots, more or less the designated wingman...backing up the LT or Captain
    With luck, the Flieger survives, gains skill, and promotion. One day he becomes one of the Alte Hassen, a wiley old hare.
    So, who would lead the mission, the Veteran NCO with several hundred missions, perhaps a 20-40 kills under his belt or the new LT playing at Schwarmfuhrer?

    The Extreme example, BARTELS (some 90+ claimed kills), did BARTELS lead or take 2nd chair to less-experienced officers?
    Still rated an NCO, not officer candidate
    I know Addi Glutz eventually commissioned, as did others
    'Paule' Rossmann 93 claimed, who led this stalwart? (if I have my facts right he was promoted to LT)

    edit
    I searched the LW 'ace' data today, many NCOs with over 40, a few over 100
     
  2. kettbo

    kettbo Member

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    Anybody?

    Bartels 99
    Wilhelm Philipp 81
    Heinz Arnold 49
    Eric Bartz 30
    Wilhelm Mink 72
    H Marquardt 121!!!!!!!!
    Helmut Missner 82

    On the Ost Front, small Rotte and Schwarm missons, I can see this scenario playing out in III./JG52 in OCT 42
    MAJ von Bonin: "UFW Rossmann, see that scrawny blonde kid over there? That's LT Hartmann, the new replacement pilot. Take him up, show him the ropes. Don't get him killed or let him kill himself doing something stupid."
    UFW Rossmann: "Yessir!" (damn, babysitting duty again!)

    Early and midwar, plenty of experienced officers to go around. But by late '43, early '44, experienced Officers were getting harder to come by. I'd have these guys as Schwarmfuhrer and Staffelfuhrer leading the show, rank be damned! I'd sure like to know what role these awesome NCO pilots (and many others not named) played in larger missions, their role in the various gruppen, etc. I know the Kommodore would want hot-flying wingman but you can't hold high scorers down with this kind of duty, you must let them hunt. How is it that these guys were not made LTs so they "could" lead?
     
  3. tyrodtom

    tyrodtom Well-Known Member

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    I've known NCOs who wouldn't accept a promotion to officer rank, for various reasons, they didn't want it.

    As one Army Sgt. said to me when I made the mistake of calling him sir. "Don't call me sir, my parents were married , now give me 30 push ups."
     
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  4. parsifal

    parsifal Well-Known Member

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    I remeber that at OTC. Made the mistake of calling one of the CPOS sir. only once
     
  5. vikingBerserker

    vikingBerserker Well-Known Member

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    :lol: I have heard "Don't call me sir I work for a living" but never that one!
     
  6. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
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    Erich might be able to give some good info on this...

    I believe in the old book "Fighter Aces of the Luftwaffe" it mentioned that NCOs with more flight experience than officers were leaders in the air and the officers yielded to that experience. It would be interesting to get a similar perspective from the RAF. I believe the Italians had many NCO pilots as well.
     
  7. Glider

    Glider Well-Known Member

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    In the RAF it varied depending on the unit and the leadership involved. In Malta during 1942 the AOC insisted that the most senior officer led the units which caused a rise in losses and was only stopped when he was replaced. Some wings In other areas it was the most experienced man was the one who led the unit. During the BOB some squadrons were very 'old fashioned', others often the newer squadrons, were more enlightened.

    I should add that in bomber command the pilot was always the one in charge of the aircraft, no matter who was on board.

    My guess is that this was similar in most forces, every force has its share of idiots
     
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  8. kettbo

    kettbo Member

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    I know lots of the LW NCO aces became officers one way or another. Lots didn't
    I'll have check out that book FLYBOY

    It is, "Don't call me Sir. I work for a living."
     
  9. kettbo

    kettbo Member

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    #9 kettbo, May 24, 2014
    Last edited: May 24, 2014
    In JG 26 Diary, Part2, pg 201, Addi Glutz is made a Staffelfuhrer JAN '44 while still an NCO, OBERFELDWEBEL, US Army SSG.
     
  10. yulzari

    yulzari Active Member

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    When I was coming to the end of my service engagement I was offered a promotion to Sergeant Major to keep me but I declined, pointing out that I was not qualified in that my parents possessed a marriage certificate.

    Ironically my grandfather was an RSM and did possess a marriage certificate.
     
  11. mikewint

    mikewint Well-Known Member

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    Team Leaders (One-Zero) were chosen by ability not rank. A good one-zero was the man who brought his men back alive. Some were sergents and some officers
     
  12. Elmas

    Elmas Active Member

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    Yes, true, there were also many aces among them.
     
  13. kettbo

    kettbo Member

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    Just an update. I read JG 26 War Diary part 2. Noted a few "LT XYZ was flying wingman for NCO 123." And several "NCO 123 lead the mission" and "NCO led the Staffel for some time before a wartime promotion to LT"
     
  14. kettbo

    kettbo Member

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    #14 kettbo, Oct 10, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2014
    a nice article here

    hmmm, not able to link, search this

    Wing Commander Dean Andrew RAF (2004) Strategic Culture
    in the Luftwaffe – Did it Exist in World War II and Has it Transitioned into the Air
    Force?, Defence Studies, 4:3, 361-386,
     
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