Macchi C.205 v Fiat G.55 v Reggiane Re.2005?

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by Lucky13, May 29, 2014.

  1. Lucky13

    Lucky13 Forum Mascot

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    All in all, how do, did, these birds compare, how similar or dissimilar were they? Did any company had a advantage over the other etc, or were they pretty much similar in design and thinking?
     
  2. Koopernic

    Koopernic Active Member

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    The Germans evaluated all of them with the Chief Test Pilot at the Luftwaffe's Rechlin test center Petersen evaluating the G.55 highly. Non other than Cheif Aeronautical Engineer, Test Pilot and a Direktor of Focke-Wulf Dr Kurt Tank also evaluated the G.55 highest of all.

    The Germans were keen to produce them. They had excellent handling and seemingly good aerodynamics: the speed being 387 mph (417 mph with WEP) on the DB605. Now the Me 109G6 had the following speeds
    1.3 ata 387mph
    1.42 ata 397mph.
    An Me 109G6AM or 108G14AM with MW50 managed 404mph.
    So the WEP speed is a little puzzling to me unless it was with the high altitude version of the DB605 known as the DB605ASM. Perhaps there are aerodynamics aspects I am missing such as the effects of propeller quality, compressibility, quality of the ram air recovery.

    The Germans were however interested in that the Fiat G.55 comfortably accepted the big German V12 such as the DB603 (and thus Jumo 213) which had pletny of power and growth ahead of them, to around 2800hp.

    So why weren't they produced? I assume with the invasion of Italy it would become too complicated to continuously modify, improve and productionise these designs. Taking a large enough design team to Germany would likely also be difficult. The design was still in an early stage of production improvement. At the end of the war a Me 109K consumed only 1000 hours and the G.55 was at the begining of the trajectory, taking almost 10 times more.

    They would have filled a nice gap between the Me 109 and the Jets. The Germans had tried to replace the Me 109, first serious attempted was the Me 309 which had a huge fuel capacity, advanced radiator and laminar flow wing. It flew in May 1942, I do not know what was wrong with this design; I assume there wasn't enough engine power or the wing loading was too high. I would've assumed a further year of development would have sorted it out and allowed production aircraft to enter service another year latter (if the DB603 or Jumo 213 was ready) so that it would have about the same time table as the Tempest V. More likely no one was sticking their neck out for Messerschmitt after the Me 210 debacle. By that time Focke-Wulf looked like it was comming through with the Fw 190D and Ta 152.

    The advantage of the G.55 is that production could have been built up on the DB605 version and then when the DB603 and Jumo 213 were ready a fighter well able to match Tempest, P-51H etc would have been available and certainly one with the handling to please.
     
  3. Elmas

    Elmas Active Member

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  4. Lucky13

    Lucky13 Forum Mascot

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    Cheers lads! :thumbright:
     
  5. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    I found the G.55 simply adorable, ditto for the torpedo-lugging G.55S version. With that said, unless someone can provide some credible data about 417 mph on WEP (Notleistung?), I'd take it with a truck load of salt ;)
     
  6. Elmas

    Elmas Active Member

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  7. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    They were competing against Fw-190. If powered by similar Jumo213 or DB603 V12 engines which fighter aircraft would you rather place into mass production during 1944?
     
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  8. Koopernic

    Koopernic Active Member

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    #8 Koopernic, Jun 1, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2014
    I am prepared to accept these as straight line speeds, the G.55 and the other fighters had outstanding aerodynamics; they seem to be in the class of the P-51, It may even have been better. I say that because the speed tests with the kind of power and critical altitude provided by the DB605 it must have excellent aerodynamics. Also the Germans wouldn't maintain enthusiasm otherwise. It must be noted however that when looking at the Me 109G6 one is looking at an aircraft that has 1/ no retractable tail wheel (abandoned around the 109G2 so as to enlarge tail wheel), 2/ Gun bulges. This cost about 10mph. 3/ No covers on the tires when retracted, also cost speed. A rather large radio antenna.

    The G.55 and Re2005 had non of these disadvantages apart from the antenna. The streamlining and surface finish build quality is uncompromised (as studying the above photograph shows), the aircraft is big enough to accommodate all fuel and equipment without 'bulges' seen on the Me 109 (due in part to production expediency) and Spitfire (gun bulges for Hispano guns, cylinder bank bulges for Griffon, slightly messy underside)

    From the Link: http://xoomer.virgilio.it/g55/G55his.htm
    For the Re2005 the German interest resulted in the provision of an original DB605 with the new WM injection. This engine and a VDM propeller were installed on the MM495 prototype that was acquired by Luftwaffe and tested in Rechlin. The aircraft reached 700 km/h (432mph) during a test with a German pilot, but the airframe was not judged sufficiently strong for these performances.

    I'm assuming this is the DB605AM engine but could be a DB605ASM (which had a larger single stage supercharger and would be harder to fit) both of which provided about 1700hp at 1.7 ata but the ASM had a higher full throttle height. These engines had lacked the higher altitude performance of the Merlin 66 or 70 so the 700kmh/432mph speed achieved is excellent as it would have been in more dense lower altitude air. I believe it would have been the DB605AM due to the ease of modification but either would have been impressive.

    From the same link:
    The G56 was an evolution of the G55 to mount the more powerful DB603 engine. Two flying prototypes were build and evaluated by Luftwaffe with excellent results: it reached 685 kmh 425mph still maintaining the high characteristics of stability and handling of the G55; no trace of flutter were noticed even when maneuvering at high acceleration. The first prototype, serial numbered MM536, had is first flight on 28 March 1944, but it was seriously damaged in the bombing raid of the 25 April.

    Again this raises the question, which DB603? I am assuming that it was the 1750hp DB603A which was in production for Me 410, He 219, Do 217 though there were a few other variants of this engine around in prototype form: the DB603G (1900hp using C3) and the DB603E (1800hp using B4 and at higher critical altitude). The engine the Germans wanted to put the Ta 152 in production with was in fact the DB603EM (which was a DB603E with MW50 that however required C3 fuel) of about 2200hp. It was abandoned due to fears of inadequate supplies of C3 fuel due to the allied oil campaign, the 'replacement' was the DB603LA which besides ability to use B4 with MW50 also had a two stage supercharger but of course delayed the Ta 152C. These are the engines G.56 likely would have received.

    The speed of 417mph with MW50 on a likely DB605AM makes sense as the Me 109G6AM with this engine achieved 404mph. Had the German aircraft had its gun bulges fared over, its tail wheel retracted and wheel covers in retraction it should have gained 10mph and so the speed is plausible. The Me 109G6ASM (more or less a Me 109G14AS) achieved this speed on the ASM engine, so that is easy to accept the latter, an engine being used on missions by may 1944.

    More advanced engines such as the DB605DB/DC which drove the Me 109K4 to 440mph would have done likewise to the G.55 only with better handling and much more fire power, internal fuel.

    The DB603LA with its two stage supercharger due to much higher critical altitude, exhaust thrust fitted to the Ta 152C probably would have driven the G.56 to 465-480mph or so.
     
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