Malaysia Airlines- flight MH 17

[rank amateur]

Good day,


I hope the moderators forgive me if I was to start this topic at the wrong place.


As you may or not be aware on the 17th of July 2014 a Boeing 777 from Malaysia Airlines was shot from the skies brutely killing all of the 298 people aboard. Because this plane departed from Schiphol, Holland merely 10 km from my frontdoor and because the bulk of the passengers were Dutch this generated strong feelings in our community which have not been tempered by the veritable flood of conspiracy theories has come over us since.

The official position in the West is that the responsible parties for this are pro Russian Separitists in the Ukraine using a BUK ground to air missile. The very next day the US supplied all sort of material to back this up, including satelite footage.

In Russia they claim that the plane was shot down by 2 Ukraine SU25 Frogfoots using both missiles and 30 mm guns. They too have provided material as satelite and radarfootage.

For some sort of reason the latter seems to generate lots of stuf on the internet:




Deleted BBC Report. ?Ukrainian Fighter Jet Shot Down MHI7?, Donetsk Eyewitnesses | Global Research

http://www.veteranstoday.com/.../mh17-shootdown-the.../

404 | Humans Are Free...

Quite frankely I just don't know but I wonder if someone can inform me about the likelihood of a loaded SU25 climbing up to a hight of 33.000 feet and shooting down a B777 cruising at 905 km/h using both missiles and the GSh30 double barreled 30 mm guns.

Furthermore is it logical to attack a small target like the cockpit in stead of aiming for the 2 jet engines.

I'd like to start with that and see where it gets me. I pray this does not get too political.

Thanx in advance

Chrzzzzzz

 

[rank amateur]

This is supposedly the Russian explanation:

MH-17′s Last Moments Shown in Russian Radar Clips | Juliet Bonnay

 

[razor1uk]

...........
Quite frankely I just don't know but I wonder if someone can inform me about the likelihood of a loaded SU25 climbing up to a hight of 33.000 feet and shooting down a B777 cruising at 905 km/h using both missiles and the GSh30 double barreled 30 mm guns.
...........

I think the fact that they say it used both guns and missiles is too add weight to their idea that the Russian public would believe that more likely since both forms of attack were used.

Since the top speed of a Frogfoot is similar to the cruising speed and its still above its service ceiling (a term that only means it cannot climb fast above such a hieght) are likely 'clean' version, they had to say it like that - to give the impression of using the cannon at short closing range, and as the airliner pulled away, then use the missiles.

Personally I reckon it shows that the Russians are painting a picture of their own concotion.

Although who s not so say the Ukrainians did not have some aircraft in the air; either doing recon or awaitng targeting data, or that there could be some even within a 25km area of the airliner at a lower altitude level. It is also possible they were escorting or covering/bracketing the airliner.

Whatever and whoever and how this terrible incident became is seemingly hidden and has definately caused trouble for all four sides in this mess that could be considered akin to a Phoney War.

Hopefully whoever operated the tracking guidance systems/unit, the launcher system those who gave the launch orders will altogether be found, tried and convicted irrespective of where and who they are; but alas I think that is an utopian dream.

If they were Russian 'volunteers' then they will be stationed in Vladivostock, Murmansk, in Siberia (and/or other far parts of the redux CCCP) - if they were following orders, if they got itchy palms and acted without orders, then they are already pig food.

If it was a Ukrainian side accident, then their is some chance it might be handled behind closed doors, but If it was them, they have the most to lose politically, internationally and pride-wise, where's as from the rival Seperatists side, if it was them c0ck up, then I bet Czar Vladimir was cursing them, and thereatening them to pull his 'subtle' support.

The fourth most outwardly least possible side is, that some one from Nato or EU somehow arranged for this to happen to steer World opinion against both sides and their backers, this I think is the least likely and most implausible idea - although Russian media have tended to hint at this occasionally.

Personally I'm not sure who to believe or what to trust, but I trust the Russian media much much less, certainly less so after the free speech crackdowns following the Ryzan FSB Bombings (Russia's version of the Operation Northwood) and the initial intelligent public scrutiny of offical BS explainations.


After going through this 36 minute video, one sentence even if mis-translated jumps out at me like a flash back from 30 years of police shows and documentaries, and especially the bolded parts of it. Also watching it, it is clear that this guy is highly stressed and it'd appear that the rebels cannot control some of their own comrades judging form some of his 'diplomatic' answers to some alleged behaviors.

".....
....As I said, the causes are pretty obvious. The plane was shot down, we couldn't have done it and we didn't want to. We do not have such weapons that could shoot down the plane from the altitude of 10,600 metres.
......"

 

[GrauGeist]

As has been discussed in another thread, the Russian news media reported just after the downing of flight MH 17, that seperatists had downed another Ukranian military transport (as they had done before) and there was celebratory posts to social media by seperatists and Russians of the transport's downing.

As it became aparent that this was not a transport, but a civil aircraft, the Russian news media immediately changed their reports to a "criminal act" by the Ukranian military and the celebratory posts by the seperatists and the Russians disappeared from social media.

A BUK missile battery was also seen being hurried from the area, even though it was shrouded, it could be seen that one cavity was emptied of it's missile.

 

[rank amateur]

I had forgotten all about this

 

[Capt. Vick]

Honestly, should we ever believe anything Putin and his cohorts say? It's laughable!

 

[GrauGeist]

ALot of details and coverage in this thread: www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/off-topic-misc-/passenger-jet-shot-ukraine-41270.html

 

[nuuumannn]

Rank Amateur, just a wee point, why would the Ukranians send an Su-25 to shoot down an airliner? It's a tank buster, not only that it cannot reach 30,000 feet in altitude. The Ukranians have Su-27s, they would have used them. Is the Russian government really that stupid to expect the world to believe this crap?

 

[GrauGeist]

Is the Russian government really that stupid to expect the world to believe this crap?

Think about that for a second...and the short answer is: yes

The world as a whole is guillible...this is why, after millenea of hard learned object lessens, society still has politicians, allows warfare and freaks out anytime an odd looking cloud floats overhead...

So to the educated person, the idiotic stunts Putin's pulling seems impossible to consider...and yet, there it is.

 

[nuuumannn]

sadly, you're right. Apparently the Russian soldiers in the Ukraine were on holiday fully armed and the first aid column really does need a T-72 MBT.

 

[Marcel]

Sadly stupidity is not the sole privilege of Putin.

But I'm with Dave, the modern social media and newsitems on the Russian TV clearly revealed the culprit and I cannot imagine that anybody can still doubt that.

 

[rank amateur]

Rank Amateur, just a wee point, why would the Ukranians send an Su-25 to shoot down an airliner? It's a tank buster, not only that it cannot reach 30,000 feet in altitude. The Ukranians have Su-27s, they would have used them. Is the Russian government really that stupid to expect the world to believe this crap?

Exactly my point. But what I like to know is: is there a remote chance that the Russian 'explanation' is feasible. According to some footage the frogfoots used there 30mm guns to shell the cockpit from the left side coming from 9 o'clock, while the B777 was cruising at 900 km/U.

Considering the speed of the SU25 at that height, it seems very unlikely.

 

[GrauGeist]

There is alot of conflicting speculation regarding the cause and some of the "experts" interviewed are very questionable. One "expert" interviewed, who is a career commercial jet pilot, has carefully explained how two Su-25 made strafing passes "as evidence and eyewitness accounts clearly show". What eyewitness accounts? How can eyewitnesses see not only one, but two military aircraft at that altitude? It is possible to see a commercial aircraft at that height because of their exterior coloring and their size, but a military jet is intentionally painted to be difficult to see at a distance, especially a military jet that is designed and equipped for ground attack.
Which leads us to another point: the Su-25 is technically capable of reaching 33,000 feet BUT it would take a pilot of incredible skill like Eric Hartmann to close with the passenger jet at those speeds and deliver a "strafing pattern" as alledged. The cannon aboard the Su-25 has a rate of fire that would require the attacker to keep the aircraft steady and on target in spite of the rate of closure, atmospheric conditions and the fact that his combat jet is not designed for those altitudes. The Su-25 is designed to kill tanks, not passenger jets. Which leads us to another question here: the Ukrainian airforce has MiG-29 and Su-27 combat jets...why would they send a ground attack craft to intecept a target that was beyond it's specs when they have very capable fighters that would have done the job quickly efficiently?

Now assuming that our super-human pilot has acheived all of these miraculous feats and is now hammering away at the helpless jet, after the first cannon round has penetrated the cockpit, there would be a violent reaction from the rapid decompression even if the round was an AP and not an HE round. In addition to the rapid decompression, the passenger jet would be yawing and reacting to the first one or two rounds...so then how would the combat jet still be delivering accurate hits to the cockpit area?

And all the "theories" continue, but the first and foremost evidence that the Russians and their rebels are guilty, is the Russian news report of the downing right after it happened. The news report and the social media posts nearly minutes after it happened are the best indicator of who was responsible. All the conspiracy nutbags can rant and rave all they want: that it was the CIA, that it was a Su-25 (or two or three, depending on which "eyewitness" they talk to), that it was a U.S. jet made to "resemble" a Su-25 (damn good eyesight to spot that one...), that a Ukranian BUK battery shot it down and so on and so on...

The bottom-line is that the Russian backed rebels thought they had another Ukranian transport. They shot it down and did their usual high-fives and pats on the back...post the glorious news to social media and send info to the Russian state news agency, who also claimed the glorious victory. Only when they realized that the effed up, di they start back-tracking and started pointing fingers at everybody but themselves.