Maritime patrol aircraft: you are in charge (1 Viewer)

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Pars, points well made. I figured these wiki ranges (with my attempt to convert any stated radius to a range) were just strawmen values giving only a hint of actual capability and not necessarily accurate (a very fuzzy concept indeed considering all the possibilities of meaning). This is also the case with other types of aircraft like fighters. Using operational examples is by far the better method of assessing range. Other than that, exchanging payload for range by varying fuel loads, as SR indicated, is what I would have anticipated for operations. I also boldfaced the wing area, gross weight and wing loading of each type as another gross comparison measure. Wing loading (perhaps slightly less fuzzy than published ranges) can provide a hint of the relative potential range and the Kawanishi had the lowest of the bunch with the PBY coming second. Of course, the Short had by far the highest (roughly double that of the H6K).

Burning time and gas on station is certainly characteristic of a modern maritime patrol operation while flying a ladder track through a patrol box. This phase of the flight can represent half the flight time, although more typically, is perhaps about 6 hours in transit and 4-6 hours on station for a P-3 searching a box located about 1,000 iles from home plate. I have no idea (beyond as SR points out, a leg, arc and return leg) what a typical op area patrol would look like in 1942. (I've only gotten to the third chapter of black cat raiders and not sure that will even address the issue) endurance is a preferable measure in many instances but range offers such a handy yardstick for ops planning)

I have to think that the Short's range could have been increased by one of two unlikely measures. Throw out all the defensive armament and payload and replace it with fuel bladders or fill the fuselage with helium or hydrogen bladders as the fuselage appears about as large as the Hindenberg! :lol:
 
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To make this possible (or necessary) Germany must retain control of her Pacific colonies.

Tsingtao.
Palau.
Marianas (except for Guam which was U.S.)
Marshal Islands.
Rabaul and N.E. New Guinea.
Samoa.

oceania_pol01.jpg



Some huge flight distances between the German Pacific colonies. I don't think anything less then a Do-26 could go the distance. They might even go a size larger and build something like the proposed Do-214.

Dornier Do 214 Luft '46 entry
do214-8.gif
 
I believe there is romance in the age of the old transceanic clipper flying boats (as well as the zepplins also of that era) that included a level of luxurious travel not seen since their demise. "Jet lag" was avoided by their relatively slow speeds (~100 or at least <200 knots) and exotic refueling stops and yet that mode of travel nevertheless offered a quantum leap over the time required for similar journeys by their surface bound counterparts. Unfortunately, that swastika on the tail spoils my reverie.

To regain it, I've visited the wiki site for the Boeing 314 Clipper.

"The first 314, Honolulu Clipper, entered regular service on the San Francisco-Hong Kong route in January 1939. A one-way trip on this route took over six days to complete. Commercial passenger service lasted less than three years, ending when the United States entered World War II in December 1941.

At the outbreak of the war in the Pacific, the Pacific Clipper was en-route to New Zealand. Rather than risk flying back to Honolulu and being shot down by Japanese fighters, it was decided to fly west to New York. Starting on December 8, 1941 at Auckland, New Zealand, the Pacific Clipper covered over 8,500 miles (13,700 km) via such exotic locales as Surabaya, Karachi, Bahrain, Khartoum and Leopoldville. The Pacific Clipper landed at Pan American's LaGuardia Field seaplane base at 7:12 on the morning of January 6, 1942.
"

while appropriated for military service it was never armed, armoured or carried ordnance AFAIK.

For enthusiasts: Foynes Flying Boat Museum

General characteristics

Crew: 11, including 2 cabin stewards
Capacity: Daytime: 74 passengers, Nighttime: 36 passengers
Payload: 10,000 lb (4,500 kg) of mail and cargo
Length: 106 ft (32.33 m)
Wingspan: 152 ft (46.36 m)
Height: 20 ft 4½ in (6.22 m)
Wing Area: 2,867 ft²
Wing loading: 29.3 lbs/ft²
Empty weight: 48,400 lb (21,900 kg)
Loaded weight: 84,000 lb (38,000 kg)
Powerplant: 4 × Wright R-2600-3 radial engines, 1,600 hp (1,200 kW) each
Performance

Maximum speed: 210 mph (180 knots, 340 km/h)
Cruise speed: 188 mph (163 knots, 302 km/h) at 11,000 ft (3,400 m)
Range: 3,685 mi (3,201 nm, 5,896 km) normal cruise
Service ceiling: 19,600 ft (5,980 m)

I can imagine an alternate reality where WW2 never happened and flying boats, Zepplins and super connies still fill the skies. :(
 
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To make this possible (or necessary) Germany must retain control of her Pacific colonies.

Why? Germany had need of long range aviation just the same as the Pacific operations did. That could be achieved by either flying boatds or conventional lr aircraft, but the need for a long rang maritime strike and recon aircraft was as important to the germans as it was to anybody, except perhaps for Britain and Japan

Despite all the promise in its experimental types, and considerable success with its lash up conversions like the FW200 and the He177 A5, Germany never really used on a general issue basis truly effective lr maritime aircraft. it was one of the failures that probably cost them the war in fact. If they really did have aircraft capable of armed reconnaisance out to say the 1500 mile mark, Britian merchant shipping to the outside world would have been under severe threat. i think it would have forced them to the surrender table in fact. The Germans did mount a pretty nasty effort with KG 40 in 1941, but it was shoestring stuff, and with inadequate types
 
Interesting side note

I'll do my best to recall what I recently read and it pertained to crossing the Atlantic pre war the US in Pan Am wanted to cross the Atlantic but the the one stop Pan Am required was Newfoundland as it was a British Colony at the time they would not grant landing rights as to prevent Pan Am from gaining a stranglehold on the Atlantic crossing . The Brirish long range flying boats required if you care to believe air to air refuelling after getting airborne which was being done but it was not fiscally comparable to the Pan Am flights .
cut and paste from Untitled Document
"Gander gets involved

The tanker G-AFRL was based at Rineanna (Shannon), Ireland and the two other Harrows were shipped as deck cargo to Montreal on the steamer SS Bedford which was part of the Canadian Pacific Shipping Line.
They were then uncrated and reassembled in Longueuil, the Fairchilds Aircraft base, and were then flown to "Hattie's Camp" which became Gander. Spare parts were also sent to Gander and the aircraft and team were fairly self sufficient, though for a part of the time a railway box car was used as accommodations.

After considerable testing, the first real success came on August 5, 1939 when a weekly mail service was inaugurated. Even the prime Minister of Ireland, M Éamon de Valera, was present for the departure. Two Imperial Airways Short S-30 flying boats flew on the Southampton-Foynes-Botwood-Montreal-New York route, refuelling in the air twice—once over Ireland and once over Newfoundland. Refuelling took place shortly after takeoff. On their return flights the flying boats were refueled by G-AFRG and G-AFRH, after take-off from Botwood.

It took generally less than 15 minutes, depending on weather conditions, to transfer the fuel between the two aircraft flying on average at about 125 mph.

These flights went so well that Imperial Airways repeated it 15 times. Before this advance could change commercial travel though, World War II ended these experiments"
 

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Avoiding WWI would be a lot better.
- Japan does not gain a foothold in China and the Pacific Islands.
- The multitude of European border disputes and ethnic tensions created by Versallies doesn't happen.
- The integrated world economy is not ripped apart and there are no massive war debts. Consequently no Great Depression.
- Ukraine and the Caucasus consist of independent nations rather then being part of Stalin's empire.
- Deutsches Reich continues their evolution into a constitutional monarchy. Historically achieved during October 1918, too late to matter.
- Hungary peacefully splits off from Austria when KuK Franz Joseph dies during 1916.
- Millions of Europe's best and brightest people aren't killed.
- A huge amount of European capital is available for economic development rather then wasted fighting WWI.

It's amazing how much damage a dozen or so bone headed 1914 European politicians caused.
 
Avoiding WWI would be a lot better.

4 Sure :!: that or, as you've described, developing a subsequent peace that didn't produce the seeds of WWII... Excuse me, I am enjoying imagining my transoceanic flight on a German built Zepplin... It's almost dinner time in the wardroom, then I'll retire to my inflight cabin :D

Maybe I'll take a windy stroll on the dorsal catwolk and admire the moon and stars...
 
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Avoiding WWI would be a lot better.
- Japan does not gain a foothold in China and the Pacific Islands.
- The multitude of European border disputes and ethnic tensions created by Versallies doesn't happen.
- The integrated world economy is not ripped apart and there are no massive war debts. Consequently no Great Depression.
- Ukraine and the Caucasus consist of independent nations rather then being part of Stalin's empire.
- Deutsches Reich continues their evolution into a constitutional monarchy. Historically achieved during October 1918, too late to matter.
- Hungary peacefully splits off from Austria when KuK Franz Joseph dies during 1916.
- Millions of Europe's best and brightest people aren't killed.
- A huge amount of European capital is available for economic development rather then wasted fighting WWI.

It's amazing how much damage a dozen or so bone headed 1914 European politicians caused.

Japan, probably japan go in china also w/o WWI

w/o WWI much higher ethnic tension

yes not GD in 29, probably a depression like 1870s in the 1920s or 1930s

w/o WWI we have russian empire not indipendent ukraina and caucasus states

probably yes, but later

maybe yes or maybe not, i'm for not

sure

capitals not look for development but profits, and did many in ww I
 
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I'll take the slow road.

20110425101419!3_-_SS_Bismarck.jpg


HAPAG was the largest shipping company in 1914 and their SS Bismarck was the largest passenger liner. 56,551 GRT of luxury (if you can afford a 1st class ticket). I'm returning to Germany after signing contracts for 5 new Telefunken radio-telegraph stations in South America. Kate Winslet is on the couch in my cabin and my sketch is almost complete....
 

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