Me-210C vs Me-410A (1 Viewer)

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Both 410 and Do-217 were not 'deserving' the DB-603.
The nightfighter Ju-88 with 603s would've been something, on the other hand.
 
The high-performance night fighter was in dire demand for Germans during most of the war. Therefore the Ju-88 with DB-603 would've been a great asset.
If that meant 'killing' the Do-217 and Me-410, so be it. The one-ups performed by those two types could've been easily emulated with 'Ju-88-603' bomber versions.
 
The Do-217 entered production by the end of 1940, filling the heavy bomber niche until the He-177 was ready. I don't think Germany can afford to cancel the Do-217 unless some other bomber fills that role. Which means Germany would probably need to proceed with the Ju-89 / Ju-290 program from 1937 onward.

The Me-110 / Me-210 / Me-410 issue is more complex. In my opinion Germany should have produced the Fw-187 as a long range day fighter ILO the Me-110. In that case there would be no Me-210 and Me-410 programs.
 
Since only 1600 Do-217s were produced, I reckon it that plane was not regarded as something of crucial importance for Luftwaffe. The 3200 engines 15000 guns it consumed would've been in better use in Ju-88/188 airframes.
 
Interesting to know that the Me 410 and Do 217 were built in the same Dornier owned factory. Not all of them but most.

I agree with Tomo that cuts had to be made. I would however cancel the Ju 88 and Do 217 in favour of the Me 410 and He 177. Those two could do what the Ju 88 and Do 217 could but do a better job at it...

He 111 could be produced until 1944 when the He 177 had its problems ironed out.
And at the same time I would force Junkers to convert all production to the DB 603 even if the Jumo 213 was going to be a bit better.

It's all about economics.
Kris
 
The 603 was one of 'the' engines of ww2, too bad for Germans that it was not used like US used R-2800, or the Brits using RR Griffon.
 
http://www.econ.yale.edu/growth_pdf/cdp905.pdf
The Ju 88-program constituted one of the largest German armament projects. The firms
which took part in the original plan of 1938 employed more than half of the workforce
engaged in German airframe production. Even in 1943, when the focal point of air
armament began to shift to fighters, the participants in the Ju 88-program still employed a
third of it (Budraß, 1998, p. 834). Between September 1938, when series production
started at Junkers, and September 1944, when it was cancelled, some 14,000 Ju 88
bombers were built.
Germany cannot cancel a program this size in the middle of WWII. You would need to cancel it during 1937. Which means the Hs-127 likely enters production instead as the standard German light bomber.
henshel-127.jpg
 
I am quite aware of the production procedures. The Germans changed their procurement plans several times a year which meant that there was no long-term organization. The problem is that any major change needs to be prepared several weeks or even months in advance. It starts with the smallest subcontractors and ends with the final assembly.
So yes, it was not easy to drop a program and replace it with another. That's why the Germans were still fighting with many same though improved aircraft in 1945 as in 1939.

But let's not exaggerate. The main reason why the Germans failed to change production was because the planned successors failed (in this case the Ju 288 ). Another reason is of course the major production loss. Not only for retooling and retraining the workers but also because of the 'learning curve' which means that it takes a long time before production is optimalized.

And yet, at some point one has to bite the bullet and see what is beneficial in the long run. At the end of 1944 and early 1945 this was done without hesitation. All piston engined fighters and night fighters except for the Ta 152 and Do 335 were to be taken out of production and replaced by jets. The number of types in production was reduced to 11 and later to just a handful. But by then it was too late.

So in short, cutting the Ju 88 or even Fw 190 program would inevitably result in a temporary shortage of aircraft when they were very needed. Political courage is needed for such a decision. And yet there is no other possibility because they will have to be replaced by other types one time or another. After this shortage production will be increased to levels far above that of the time before. Plus, maintenance and repairs will be drastically improved. This is all the more important for the Luftwaffe which had a 1/2 serviceability rate which was idiotic and incomprehensible. Only drastic measures could ensure the survival of the Luftwaffe. All other countries realized this, only the RLM (Reichsluftfahrtministerium) was stuck in pre-1939 thinking.

Kris
 
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only the RLM (Reichsluftfahrtministerium) was stuck in pre-1939 thinking.
Why do you say that?

Hurricane, P-39 and P-40 fighter aircraft were produced into 1944. The Me-109 was superior all of them by a wide margin.

B-25 and B-26 medium bombers served to the end of WWII. The Ju-88 was superior to both.

There are plenty more examples of obsolescent allied equipment remaining in mass production.
 
Why do you say that?

Hurricane, P-39 and P-40 fighter aircraft were produced into 1944. The Me-109 was superior all of them by a wide margin.

B-25 and B-26 medium bombers served to the end of WWII. The Ju-88 was superior to both.

There are plenty more examples of obsolescent allied equipment remaining in mass production.

Both the B-25 and B-26 were excellent medium bombers that had very good defensive armament and compiled excellent combat records, IIRC. They certainly could defend themselves better than the Ju-88 bomber. In what way(s) was/were the Ju-88 superior to them?
 
In what way(s) was/were the Ju-88 superior to them?
Ju-88S1. 379mph max speed. 326mph cruise speed.
B25J. 275mph max speed. 230mph cruise speed.
B25G. 287mph max speed. 216mph cruise speed.

Which bomber would be most difficult to intercept or to hit with AA fire?
 
Both the B-25 and B-26 were excellent medium bombers that had very good defensive armament and compiled excellent combat records, IIRC. They certainly could defend themselves better than the Ju-88 bomber. In what way(s) was/were the Ju-88 superior to them?

Considering the Ju 88 was used as a heavy fighter and a night figher, I find it hard to believe it could not "defend itself". In the bomber role, I can agree with you though, because it had less defensive armament.
 
As far as the JU 88 "defending" itself I guess it all depends on the Variant doesn't it?

JU 88S has one hand held 13 mm MG with 250 rounds out the top rear. Not much if the fighters do catch it.

If it is carring night fighter guns and radar then it isn't a bomber is it?

THe 379mph is while using GM-1, Pretty zippy put niether the GM-1 or the Fuel is going to last forever. It is also without external load.

Just what was the mission radius of the JU 88s with even 2200lbs of bombs at what speed?

A bomber that can't reach the target with bombs on board, no matter how fast, isn't any better than a slow bomber that can.
 
Dave, that Ju 88S comparison is flawed and you know it ! :)
The Ju 88S was a special pathfinder version with a single gun and a small payload and bigger engines.
Ju 88A-4 was 292 mph but as it had to carry heavier bombs on the outside would lose quite a bit more than other medium bombers.


And I said the RLM was stuck in prewar thinking, I didn't say the Luftwaffe was nor that the aircraft were outdated. The RLM still managed aircraft procurement programs as it did before 1939. If you disagree then just recall the boss of the RLM? Who was that again? Oh yeah ... :D

Kris
 
Both US bombers (and not only them) have had the benefits of strong engines being available early enough. That enabled them to carry a dozen of HMGs and plenty of bombs and rockets.
In the same time (1940-41, when B-24 -25 were conceived) RLM though that 1500HP would've be enough for designs of the next 3 decades. :rolleyes:
 
Considering the Ju 88 was used as a heavy fighter and a night figher, I find it hard to believe it could not "defend itself". In the bomber role, I can agree with you though, because it had less defensive armament.

That's why I specifically mentioned the Ju 88 bomber version in my comparison to the B-25 and B-26. As you pointed out, the Ju 88 heavy fighter and nightfighter versions should not have difficulty defending themselves, but comparing the American heavy bombers to these versions would have been akin to comparing apples to oranges.
 
That's flawed logic. A bomber that gets intercepted by a dedicated bomber-destroyer like the Fw-190A8/R1 is likely to die no matter how many defensive machineguns it has. The best defense is to make interception difficult by cruising at high speed over enemy airspace.
 
A bomber is a bomb truck, it's mission is to carry bombs from it's base and drop them on targets.

If the targets are beyond the range of the bomber,or the bomber carries so few bombs at that it requires many more bombers to get the same weight of bombs to the target then the small, fast bomber is useless.

THe two american bombers could not perform like the LATER models of the JU 88 but then the JU 88 couldn't perform many of the mission the American bombers could perform.

It couldn't carry enough fuel and bombs at the same time.

Edit> Question, was that max speed of the JU 88 using GM-1 at it's normal weight of 24,250lbs or at close to it's max weight of 30,400lbs?>edit
 
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That's flawed logic. A bomber that gets intercepted by a dedicated bomber-destroyer like the Fw-190A8/R1 is likely to die no matter how many defensive machineguns it has. The best defense is to make interception difficult by cruising at high speed over enemy airspace.

Think you've misunderstood me.
The reason I've mentioned dozen of HMGs (along with other weapons) was to describe the higher firepower, both offensive defensive, US bombers had when compared to their German counterparts. The powerfull engines enabled that.
Ju-88 was rarely able to 'cruise at high speed over enemy airspace'. It was faster then Polish and Norvegian fighters, and that was it. Nor the Do-217, nor Me-210/410. It was Mosquito that could do the high speed bomb run for the most of the war.

Now, if we mount the DB603 at Ju-88s as early as 1942...
 

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