Me-262 performance
- Thread starter Soren
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Evil_Merlin
Airman 1st Class
What exactly is the Jumo C? I know the 004-C was was a much improved 004-A with increased thrust, backup fuel injection system and even an afterburner.
Since the "real" Me-262 was fitted with the 004B-1 or 004B-3, how do they relate to the Jumo C?
Since the "real" Me-262 was fitted with the 004B-1 or 004B-3, how do they relate to the Jumo C?
Arneken
Airman
It would be more fun is you could compare it with the ME-109 and to see the difference but this is nice too.
Well you can't blame the Germans of not doing there best with airplanes, off course to bad (or luckely) they didn't had the opportunity to employ them (Me-262) tottally.
greetings.
Well you can't blame the Germans of not doing there best with airplanes, off course to bad (or luckely) they didn't had the opportunity to employ them (Me-262) tottally.
greetings.
- Thread starter
- #5
The Me-262 turns very well at high speeds, having much higher energy retention than any piston engined fighter. The absolute no no in any of the early jets was however getting into a low speed turning fight as acceleration was very sluggish at slow speeds.
Now regarding the chart,
The performance is with the Jumo 004C which is the improved version of the 004B with better throttle control an abit extra thrust, 1.2 kN to be exact. However the Jumo 004D which was actually ready to be used BEFORE wars end was even better at 10.3 kN, and would've given the Me-262 performance higher than on that chart.
The Performance on the chart is very similar to that of the Std. Me-262A-1a with its Jumo 004B engine and with a take off weight of 6400 kg, while performance at 5700 kg would be slightly lower.
Now regarding the chart,
The performance is with the Jumo 004C which is the improved version of the 004B with better throttle control an abit extra thrust, 1.2 kN to be exact. However the Jumo 004D which was actually ready to be used BEFORE wars end was even better at 10.3 kN, and would've given the Me-262 performance higher than on that chart.
The Performance on the chart is very similar to that of the Std. Me-262A-1a with its Jumo 004B engine and with a take off weight of 6400 kg, while performance at 5700 kg would be slightly lower.
Evil_Merlin
Airman 1st Class
But the Jumo 004C didn't make it into production, it was a paper/prototype only engine. So is the entire graph just projected performance?
Also the 004D had been tested and was ready to enter production, but never did.
The C and D provided the same amount of thrust per pound, around 1.41 lbf/lb. So while the D provided a bit more power it was also nearly 70lbs heavier, for 77 more lbf of thrust.
Also the 004D had been tested and was ready to enter production, but never did.
The C and D provided the same amount of thrust per pound, around 1.41 lbf/lb. So while the D provided a bit more power it was also nearly 70lbs heavier, for 77 more lbf of thrust.
- Thread starter
- #7
It is projected performance based on performance runs already made with the Jumo 004B.
Did I say otherwise?
The extra weight matters little, esp. when it comes to speed, where the Jumo 004D would give better performance. Climb rate would also increase slightly.
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
The Jumo -004C was a project engine, not actually build or tested. The afterburner jet engine tested before VE-day was the Jumo-004E. The -E was basically an improved -004D with 1000 Kp thrust (1.200 Kp with reheat). The Jumo-004D was in serial production by wars end, but: it´s rated thrust was limited to 930 Kp (=9.1 KN). (Compare H.J. Nowara, die dt. Luftrüstung, Vol. 4, page 115 or Anthony L. Kay, german jet engines). The projected performance chart of Jumo-004C driven Me-262´s has 36.6% more thrust avaiable than the std. Me-262.
The Jumo-004E was in the process of tooling up for mass production but it isn´t clear if the reheat was kept or not. Most Me-262 projected performance charts seem to refer to the 1000 Kp rated Jumo-004E:
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Evil_Merlin
Airman 1st Class
???
Have you ever flown a real plane before?
Every ounce matters. Every single ounce, and it all impacts performance from speed to rate of climb, corner speeds and the whole gamut.
Evil_Merlin
Airman 1st Class
Everything I have read shows the D to only had passed all testing and was ready to enter serial production, but didn't do so before V-E day. Also the data points I have show the D to be limited to 10.3 kN not 9.1Kn.
The info I have on the E show it to be a modified D for better performance at altitude.
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
What is the source of Your datas? The -D4 according to it´s operating manual was a serial Jumo-004B4 with improved air intake and some Chromadur elements replaced by Tinadur. Of course, the engine could be overloaded in theory to 10KN (as was the Jumo-004A) but "Werkseinstellung" was limited to 8.700 rpm, which would yield identic settings as the Jumo-004B4. From what Nowarra writes, the Jumo-004D4 was "standing" in mass production along with the Jumo-004B4 at wars end, altough it appears that few if any -004D found their way into Me-262´s and I believe one was installed into a He-162 M prototype, indicating that mass production was very recent.
best regards,
- Thread starter
- #13
LoL, yes I have but I sincerely doubt that you have if you believe 25 kg alters anything let alone that every ounce matters!
Yes climb rate is affected, but speed not even close to as much! Fact is you'd have to have a very large increase in weight to get any meaningful negative effect on the speed of a/c this size weight. A 25 kg increase in weight is going to have exactly ZERO effect on the speed of the a/c and pretty much the same with climb rate!
These are real a/c buddy, not RC models
Evil_Merlin
Airman 1st Class
LoL, yes I have but I sincerely doubt that you have if you believe 25 kg alters anything let alone that every ounce matters!
Yes climb rate is affected, but speed not even close to as much! Fact is you'd have to have a very large increase in weight to get any meaningful negative effect on the speed of a/c this size weight. A 25 kg increase in weight is going to have exactly ZERO effect on the speed of the a/c and pretty much the same with climb rate!
These are real a/c buddy, not RC models
Um, I'm well aware these are real aircraft. I've been a private pilot for over 26 years now. I'm very aware of the difference 25kg can make in the flight characteristics of an aircraft.
If you think 25kg doesn't matter, then its quite clear you've never flown a full scale aircraft in any role with the exception of a passenger or dead weight.
Evil_Merlin
Airman 1st Class
Messerschmitt Me 262: The Production Log 1941-1945 by O'Connell and Me262 by Radinger and Schick, Messerschmitt Me 262: Testing/Development/Production by Radinger, Me-262 The Story of the German Air Weapon That Almost Changed the Course of the War by Maloney and Frank, and all three of the Messerschmitt Me 262: Variations Project Designs series.
Oh and I almost forgot all four Me 262 books by Richard Smith
- Thread starter
- #16
I've flown longer than that, not that it matters though.
So I repeat 25 kg does not matter in aircraft which weigh several tons, aka REAL aircraft! Funny thing though is I'm sure you already know this but you just love nitpicking..
PS: I've met many ignorant pilots in my life, and guess what, all were private pilots. So don't think being a pilot makes you smarter
But hey keep counting those bugs assembling on your windscreen, cause if you don't you might just suddenly get overweight and crash!
claidemore
Senior Airman
Very enlightening chart Soren.
Evil_Merlin
Airman 1st Class
I've flown longer than that, not that it matters though.
So I repeat 25 kg does not matter in aircraft which weigh several tons, aka REAL aircraft! Funny thing though is I'm sure you already know this but you just love nitpicking..
PS: I've met many ignorant pilots in my life, and guess what, all were private pilots. So don't think being a pilot makes you smarter
But hey keep counting those bugs assembling on your windscreen, cause if you don't you might just suddenly get overweight and crash!
Never said being a pilot made me any more intelligent than anyone, but being a pilot I know 25kg does matter. A Cessna 172 and 180 are very real aircraft, and I can tell you with no hesitation at all 25 kg does matter. It mattered with the Citation X, and was a rather big concern that took a good 30 minutes before every flight making sure all the weight was accounted for. Eveyr flight.
Real weight matters enough that the F-22 engineers were paid cash for every 1lb of weight they could remove from the plane before it hit production. The same thing is happening again with the F-35. Every pound.
So if weight doesn't matter, why are/did those engineers get paid cash money? After all those are "real" aircraft, each weighing well over several tons each.
PS: if you know of bugs that weigh in the KG range good luck with that.
- Thread starter
- #19
EM,
Don't try to dodge the issue here, we weren't talking wether weight mattered, we were talking wether 25 kg matter in a/c which weigh several tons, there's a big difference!
You're not seriously going to try and tell me that there would be any meaningful difference between an F-22 piloted by 60 kg female pilot and one by a 85 kg male, are you ???
Don't try to dodge the issue here, we weren't talking wether weight mattered, we were talking wether 25 kg matter in a/c which weigh several tons, there's a big difference!
You're not seriously going to try and tell me that there would be any meaningful difference between an F-22 piloted by 60 kg female pilot and one by a 85 kg male, are you ???
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
I think you are both right, and wrong. Weight is important and every program I have been on has had an expensive weight savings effort. Every pound counts mainly because there are a lot of "pounds" on a complex aircraft, ie, add a pound here and a pound there and you eventually get to a lot of weight. However, it is also true that some weight does not affect the aircraft performance. It tends to be a factor of percent of the aircraft weight. For example, in this case I think we are talking about 140 lbs (70 lbs/eng, two engines), let's take three planes I have flown, T-41 (Cessna 172), T-38, and C-141. Now in the T-41, I am sure 140 lbs would affect aircraft performance significantly, in T-38, 140 lbs would not affect maneuvering performance, but every pound of gas was important. 140 lbs of fuel (28 gallons) may mean whether you would make it back to base. Believe me we counted every pound. In the C-141, we could care less. If the weather was a little dicey, we would add a extra 20 to 40k lbs of gas. If every crewman wanted to bring back 20lbs (160 lbs) of stereo equipment from Japan, no sweat. Now 140 lbs is approximately 1.6 percent of the empty weight of a Me-262. That would add up to 507 lbs for an F-22. I am sure that would create a major weight reducing program. So, I think 140 lbs is important to the Me-262 but apparently, since early jets were so thrust limited, the increased performance offset the penalty of weight. I am assuming 140 lbs is right since I could never understand developing a engine for only 37lbs of thrust.
An interesting anecdote. While working on the Tacit Blue program, we were hammered to reduce our systems weight by any amount, then, when the program was ready to fly, they added a 1000lbs (if I remember right) of lead in the nose to make the cg right. Go figure!
An interesting anecdote. While working on the Tacit Blue program, we were hammered to reduce our systems weight by any amount, then, when the program was ready to fly, they added a 1000lbs (if I remember right) of lead in the nose to make the cg right. Go figure!
