Mistel combinations

[mikewint]

I have recently been looking into the german Mistel project and several questions come to mind.
most seemed to involve the Bf 109 or Fw 190 attached to a Ju 88 loaded with a 2 ton shaped charge. this was supposed to penetrate 7 meters of steel. most sources stated that these combos were SLOW. with 3 engines running would not a pretty decent speed been maintained? i've seen shaped charges and their effect but only on aluminum, like the m113 or 551 tank. 25 feet of steel sounds like a real stretch. plus i've read that none of these had much effect on anything they were used against.
i've also seen a He 162 - Me 262 combination which does not seem correct. i can't see that the me 262 could carry enough explosives to be effective, and operational me 262s were not exactly common enough to waste one as a bomb. the He 162 was also barely operational?
the last was a Ju 287 - Me 262 combination. the Ju 287 was only a prototype test bed for various engine combinations
were any of these jet combos actually flown in combat?
lots of questions i know but any comments appreciated
mike

 

[A4K]

From what I can gather, only The Mistel 1 (Bf 109/ Ju 88 ) and Mistel 2 (Fw 190/ Ju 88 ) combinations were actually used in combat - pure 'bad luck' seems to have dogged most attempts of their use (one raid abandoned because the lead formations engines failed to start, another when the lead formation's left tyre burst and blocked the runway, etc...)
Many Mistel 3's (Fw 190/ Ju 88H) were also ready for ops, but as far as I know were grounded for various reasons, and either fell victim to strafing Allied aircrfat, or were captured intact by advancing Allied troops.

Point to not: you will find reference to S1, S2, and S3 Misteln ('Mistletoe') - these were aircraft fitted with standard noses for crew training, the nose being replaced with the warhead for ops.

The other combinations you mentioned were in various stages of planning, but there was no time to actualize them. Among these was an Fw 190/ Ta 152 Pulkzerstörer (Formation Buster) combination, Fw 190/ Siebel combination, He 162/ Me 262, Me 262/ Ju 188, Me 262A-2a/U2/ Me 262, and Me 262/ Ju287 combination. Apparently Ta 152H/ Ju 88 combinations may have been built in Quedlingen, but according to my sources, no further info has come to light on that.

Evan

 

[bobbysocks]

here's a website for you...found it while reseaching APHRODITE operations...


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkLvyXY1LV0 <<< some animation and some real footage

 

[wheelsup_cavu]

Good find bobbysocks.
I hadn't seen the footage of the Mistel on youtube before.


Wheels

 

[GrauGeist]

They had a proposal for a Mistel combination of an Arado Ar234 Fi103, too...

But like most of thier paper projects, this didn't happen.

 

[bobbysocks]

the US version was called APHRODITE operations...althought the controlling craft was not a parasite ( piggyback) . Joe Kennedy was killed in the early version of these when the pilots were to fly them in so close and then bail out. later they were radio controlled (shortly after take off the pilots would bail). i dont think any of the operations were very successful (still doing some research). the one i have a first hand account was more akin to a comedy of errors than anything else...although it did make a BIG boom...it missed but was impressive nonetheless..i was told....haha

 

[mikewint]

fist, my thanks to all of you so very much for the information. i knew the bf 109 and fw190/ ju 88 combos were tried. read something about them being used against the normandy invasion but that the french had decoyed the mistels with a sunken battleship.
any thoughts on speed? i'm not a pilot but i would have thought that the fighters engine plus the 2 engines on the ju 88 would have maintained a reasonable speed for the combo
i thought joe kennedy was just transporting/delivering a new type of high explosive which detonated accidentally (static spark? possibly). i had no idea he was testing? actual combat? with a new weapon system.
do you have a source for that?

 

[Maximowitz]

There's a rather informative book on the Mistel composites by Robert Forsyth. I assume you have that?

Mistel

 

[mikewint]

no, i do not, i am very much a novice at aircraft. i have a text on luftwaffe organization and some basic aircraft but that's about it. my original interest was with tanks, as i was an old "groundpounder". the technologically advanced german tank designs and the german approach to solving engineering problems were fascinating. i branched from there to the ME 262 and other german aircraft of the period, so i am very much learing as i go along. recently i came across the various mistel combinations but my source was not clear on what had actually been built and tried in combat and the paper only proposals.
i did look at the ariel torpedo link and that was quite an eye opener. i had never even heard of the US program and had thought that kennedy had died attempting to simply deliver a load of torpex.
i deeply appreciate any and all information or getting me pointed in the proper direction
mike

 

[bobbysocks]

yeah.... here is the original site and the second one is the tab off of that one:

ETF - Airborne Military Camera

JFK's Brother

the us navy version was operation ANVIL

 

[mikewint]

To all, once again thank you for all the replies. it really is the things you learn AFTER you think you know it all that counts. my family had its first TV in 1949 i never realized TV went back before WWII or that joe kennedy was involved with testing these flying bombs.

 

[A4K]

Actually I read the TV existed in theory in the 1800's already (no joke!), but the condensators of the time were too large to make it practical. (Think of the first room-size computers for example...)

The first functioning black and white TV was invented in 1928, and the first colour TVs between 1938 and 1940, interestingly by 5 seperate individuals in 3 different countries...there is debate over who's was actually the first...

 

[mikewint]

A4K,
you are correct, after reading about joe k i did some research into the history of TV and found those same surpising (to me anyway) dates. WWII halted all commercial TV ithe US, by 1945 there were about 7,000 TV sets and 9 broadcast stations. it was about 1949 or so when we got our first set.

 

[A4K]

Thanks for the confirmation mate! The above was from a book I read about 5 years ago - good to know I remembered the dates alright!

BTW, we got our first set 30 years after you.. I just used to watch the saturday music programme 'Ready to Roll'. Still remember seeing Blondie's 'Heart of glass' in black and white...

 

[mikewint]

don't remember that one, we got ours because i had measles and had to stay in a dim room 24/7 a tough job for a 5yo so mom and dad got a old used set so i could watch howdy doody. Then we got a filter to put over the round screen, blue on top, green on the bottom, instant color TV. we were in the bigtime

 

[bobbysocks]

we never had that filter but my wife told me her dad did that. its howdy doodie time...wow. somewhere we have an old 33rpm vinyl of that...now i am wondering where the heck that is!!!

 

[mikewint]

there were no daytime TV shows just the pattern, programing started about 4PM or so. Dad got the TV back in the evening so he could watch Milton Berle, Ed Sullivan (Your Show of Shows), Red Skelton, etc.
Daytime it was the radio. Little Orphan Annie, Cisco Kid, Gunsmoke, etc. and news about Korea.

 

[bobbysocks]

i concede, you must have a few years on me and i am 53.... the earliest i remember was 59ish/60ish....remember watching john glen in the mercury take off and laying on the floor with my feet on the chair to emulate how he was sitting during take off...lol. but the flintstones were prime time....loved red skelton...clem kadiddlehopper,, gertrude and heclifte the 2 seagulls..... i loved tv back then.....now i barely watch it. HOWEVER, i do have my dad's old 78 rpms from the 30s and 40s....some good stuff there....big bands, etc.

 

[mikewint]

bobbysocks, more than a few, i was in vietnam in '63 left in late '67 just before tet, which would not have been a surprise if the big brass had listened to what we were trying to tell them. we'd been seeing tank tracks in cambodia for weeks, but we were told to forget it, they were just bulldozers.
dad had hundreds of 78's but mom got rid of them along with my "fire hazard" comic books dating to the '50s, and his lionel trains, still in boxes, dating to the '30s

 

[bobbysocks]

yeah i read a report about lang vei ( sp ) that when they were getting over run by tanks and no one would believe them. after the stories my brother-in-law told me...nothing suprises me. he was in a MASH unit in I Corp. my mother threw away a bunch of my crap...which i could have hussled for a pretty penny on Ebay...oh well.