Mix ammo Lancaster ???

[Rem10]

Hello,
for Lancaster machine guns, what is the mix of cartridges please?
thank you

 

[A.G. Williams]

There was a lot of flexibility in this, often depending on what the gunner wanted. I recall reading of one gunner who loaded 100% tracer, on the grounds that this would scare off the night-fighters.

 

[Rem10]

Ok thank you.
I found a piece of cartridge belt, there are blue tips, white tips, and colorless tips.
I want to reassemble a belt with 303 cartridges hence my question

 

[Greyman]

What year / month would you like this belt to represent?

EDIT: For the vast majority of the Lancaster's war the official orders were ...

Four-gun rear turret

1 x gun AP​

1 x gun Incendiary​

2 x guns 4 AP, 1 Tracer​

​

Two-gun turrets

3 x AP, 1 x Tracer, 1 x Incendiary​

​

That said, as AG Williams stated -- often times a particular Group, Squadron, or individual gunner had their own ideas.

 

[JDCAVE]

There's a note in the 6-Group ORB during the latter part of 1994 or sometime perhaps as late as Feb 45, that tracer was discontinued. I will look for it when I get home.

I had also thought that the Luftwaffe had also discontinued it in their Nachtjagd units but I note that on the raid to Pforzheim, Feb 23, 1945, there are a lot of comments in various sources of observations of tracer upon leaving the Target Area.

Jim

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

Four-gun rear turret

1 x gun AP​

1 x gun Incendiary​

2 x guns 4 AP, 1 Tracer​

​

​

Never thought that diferent guns in the same turret would be loaded with diferent mix.

 

[JDCAVE]

Please find attached a end of the war summary from 6-Group concerning the ammunition used. By February, 1945, 6-Group had abandoned tracer ammunition. Did some crews continue to use it? I don't know, but they couldn't just choose: the Base or Station or Squadron Gunnery Leader would have to sign off on it. To Quote: " An interesting policy change was introduced in February, 1945, when the decision was made to abandon the use of tracer ammunition. The value of tracer ammunition had long been doubted, although it was difficult to obtain any agreement among gunners on its value. The introduction of the Gyro Gun Sight was perhaps the deciding factor in the decision to abandon its use. With the abandonment of tracer ammunition, loads were made up of 70% Amour Piercing and 30% Incendiary in the case of .303' ammunition and 100% Armour Piercing in the case of .50' ammunition. The last few days of the war in Europe saw another change in policy when Bomber Command instructed that future .303" ammunition loads were to consist of 100% Incendiary ammunition."

Note that Group Headquarters routinely had meetings that would have included section leaders to debate and go around on decision such as these. "Operations Research Section" (ORS) would also have been involved in these decisions.

Jim

 

[Greyman]

Very interesting, thanks.

I believe 5 Group had done away with tracer about September 1944.

The big-wigs decided in a 30 March '45 meeting that tracer was not required in heavy bomber free guns. Official orders were issued 17 May 1945:

.303 guns:​

100% AP or 100% Incendiary​

​

.50 guns:​

100% AP/I​

​

Interesting to note that the 6 Group ORB refers to 100% .303 Incendiary only. Perhaps the official orders were amended / clarified shortly after issue.

 

[JDCAVE]

Further to this discussion, Operational Research in Bomber Command by Basil Dickens provides the following assessment of tracer ammunition:
"The merits of the use of tracer ammunition for the guns of bomber aircraft were debated throughout the course of the war, and the O.R.S. was asked by Training Armament Branch to consider the question at the end of 1944. A short paper (Memorandum No. M.128 'Pros and Cons of Tracer Ammunition for Bomber Aircraft) was therefore prepared in which it was pointed out that owing to its poor ballistics, tracer was useless for the purpose for which it was originally made, namely to assist in aiming. Its advantages and disadvantages are discussed in the paper which recommended that the problem of producing tracer ammunition which does not distract the gunner from his sight would be re-examined."

Note that this is a summary document of original papers that are more fully developed.

Jim

 

[A.G. Williams]

I had also thought that the Luftwaffe had also discontinued it in their Nachtjagd units but I note that on the raid to Pforzheim, Feb 23, 1945, there are a lot of comments in various sources of observations of tracer upon leaving the Target Area.

The Luftwaffe had a "dim tracer" (Glimmspur) type designed to be seen only from behind, so it would help the night fighters with their aiming but would not alert the target bomber crew. This was particularly used in upward-firing cannon installations (Schrage Musik).

 

[Rem10]

Hello,
thank you very much for your very interesting answers!
Someone gave me links of 303 British that he had recovered from the crash of a lancaster, there are incendiary cartridges (blue tips), tracers (white tips) and perforators (without color).
They are dated 1942 and they have been removed from the links.
What can be the mix of these 3 models of cartridges? proportions ?
thank you very much

 

[A.G. Williams]

The big-wigs decided in a 30 March '45 meeting that tracer was not required in heavy bomber free guns. Official orders were issued 17 May 1945:

The issues were of course different between the RAF and the USAAF.
In RAF night bombers, the use of tracer gave away the position of the bomber to any night-fighters in the vicinity.
In USAAF day bombers, the attacking Luftwaffe pilots could see the targets clearly enough, but the gunners in the bombers discovered that the fighters would sometimes flinch away from tracers heading straight for them, spoiling their aim. This was so marked that the US even developed a special, extra-bright "Headlight" tracer for the .50 cal MGs, just for use in bombers.