Modern single engine General Aviation aircraft, as fighters?

[MikeGazdik]

Ok, Im not a pilot, but have flown a few times with friends/family. Here is a twisted idea I have had for some time.

If you put say a .30cal gun in each wing, what current general aviation single would be the king in air to air? My rules are mass produces single engine, 6 cylinder or less. The common birds from Cessna, Mooney, Beech, Piper, etc.

Anybody, pilot or not, have any insight on the potential of any of these aircraft if they had to manuever in air combat vs another?

 

[tyrodtom]

I'd say none of them would be able to keep their sights on a Piper Pawnee at 50 feet.

 

[vikingBerserker]

I think I'd have to go with the Piper as well.

 

[GregP]

The Pawneee is a great choice for the most maneuverable, but the Zero was that in WWII and got surpassed easily by many more modern fighters. I'd go with the Lancair / Cessna Columbia as fast and reasonably maneuverable. It would certainly get there well before the Pawnee if attacking and no Pawnee could keep the Comumbia in its sights for more than a few seconds. The converse may well be true, but the Columbia could initiate and break off combat at will, and that probably makes the difference.

Another possible great choice is the Beech T-34 Mentor that is basically a tandem seat Bonanza .. but it wasn't a civilian aircraft until retired, so maybe it is not a candidate.

If we are looking at AG planes, what about a Fletcher FU-24?

I'd not be disapointed to be flying the Pawnee, though. Altogether a great aircraft for several roles from glider tug to agriculture to COIN.

I believe Thrush makes a turbine Thrush (PT6) that might well be the best ... but is not a six cylinder piston unit and so is not eligible.

Does an Extra 300 qualify for mass-production? If so, I nominate the Extra 300.

If not, I nominate the PZL M.26. it has great performance and you can buy one if you try.

 

[tyrodtom]

Oops, I forgot about the Mentor . It's got it all, speed, agility, and all round vision.

Most general aviation aircraft don't have the structure for full aerobatics, but (might) be ok if lightly loaded. I think the Cessna 150 Acrobat, or whatever, had some structual strenghting, and a inverted oil system, because it is a little heavier than the usual 150.
Most of the general aviation aircraft don't have the greatest all round vision too, big blindspots.

 

[Shortround6]

Does this count as "modern"

SIAI-Marchetti SF.260 - close support aircraft

 

[MikeGazdik]

Key words, "General Aviation" " Common Birds"

Regular, passenger carrying airplanes. Cessna 182, or 210, Mooney 201, Piper Archer, Arrow, Commanche, Beech Bonanza, Socata Trinidad. Aircraft such as these, things you see fly over every day, not specialized aircraft such as crop dusters, military trainers...etc.

 

[MikeGazdik]

Oops, I forgot about the Mentor . It's got it all, speed, agility, and all round vision.

Most general aviation aircraft don't have the structure for full aerobatics, but (might) be ok if lightly loaded. I think the Cessna 150 Acrobat, or whatever, had some structual strenghting, and a inverted oil system, because it is a little heavier than the usual 150.
Most of the general aviation aircraft don't have the greatest all round vision too, big blindspots.

Your reasons are exactly what makes it interesting to me. They are not designed to do the mission, but it would be interesting which one can maneuver the best, is built more robust, to handle the fight. Vision is obviously huge, and not the greatest on most of these craft.

 

[evangilder]

Straight tail bonanza. Basically the same as the T-34. Put the bigger engine in it and you can get 180 knots easily. Lancairs are pretty zippy as well. Go with a Turbine Legend and you have a rocket of an airplane!

 

[tyrodtom]

With those restrictions, i'd take the Beech Bonanza, with a straight tail.

 

[Trebor]

the zero was even surpassed in speed by the C-69 Constellation

 

[Shortround6]

Key words, "General Aviation" " Common Birds"

Regular, passenger carrying airplanes. Cessna 182, or 210, Mooney 201, Piper Archer, Arrow, Commanche, Beech Bonanza, Socata Trinidad. Aircraft such as these, things you see fly over every day, not specialized aircraft such as crop dusters, military trainers...etc.

Most (if not all) of those planes have a max "G" load of 3.8 at normal gross weight. Few have a higher "G" rating at any weight although a few do if certified in the "utility" category if I remember right. Few (if any) are rated for inverted flight. This rather restricts maneuvers to artificial limits and not what the wing loading etc would suggest. It also restricts the scope of available maneuvers. Maximum never exceed speeds can be fairly low also. For instance a Cessna 180 (tail drager 182) with a 230hp engine has a top speed at sea level of 170mph while it's Max never exceed (dive speed) is 192mph. Some other light planes have similar margins.

The Siai-Marchetti SF 260 I linked to earlier is rated at 6 "G"s at at 2,425lbs for acrobatic use. 4.4 "G"s at 2,645lbs in "utility" category but without external load. It does have a max take off weight of 2,866lbs with a pair of 125kg bombs but with restricted fuel capacity.

We may be able to dig up specifications for a number of these aircraft from various editions of "Jane's" ( were I got the above data) but none of these aircraft are going to "dog fight" worth beans.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

COOL THREAD!!!!!

HERE'S ONE FOR YOU FOLKS!!!!

"Unventuresome Swedes spend their vacations at the seashore with wives and children. Count Carl Gustaf von Rosen, on the other hand, has left the family home this year and with four other men has gone off to Biafra on a big-game hunt of sorts. The weapon they chose is an odd one: a Swedish single-engine aircraft known as the MFI-9B trainer, equipped to hold twelve rockets in pods under its wing. The bag claimed so far has been equally unusual: it includes four MIGs, one Ilyushin 28, two Canberras, a Heron and a control tower, all belonging to the federal government of Nigeria.

Psychological Lift. Von Rosen, 59, is a Swedish nobleman with a passion for airplanes and a penchant for underdogs. "Once I get into a plane," he says, "I feel that I can do just about anything as long as I believe in it." As a young man he flew a Heinkel air ambulance in Ethiopia, helping victims of Italian aggression. When Russia attacked Finland, he signed up as a lieutenant in the Finnish air force. In the Congo in 1960, Von Rosen flew supplies for Swedish troops on United Nations peace-keeping duty. Now a senior pilot for a charter flight service called Transair Sweden, Von Rosen last summer hauled relief supplies to Biafra.

The plight of the Biafrans rekindled his sympathies for the outgunned and inspired an improbable, wildly romantic scheme: to marshal pilots and planes and create an instant air force for the planeless Biafrans. Last week, as the Biafran rebellion against Nigeria neared its second anniversary, Von Rosen and his flyers attacked the Nigerian airport at Benin, reported damage to one MIG and several civilian planes sitting on the ground. That raid and two earlier forays, which damaged British- and Russian-made Nigerian planes at Enugu and Port Harcourt, eased the pressure on Biafra's landing strip at Uli. With no Nigerian bombers overhead for a change, transports were shuttling in.

Von Rosen's air corps, which includes two Biafran pilots, has also given a psychological lift to Biafran troops fighting on despite the loss of their capital. Soon after Umuahia fell in April, Biafrans retaliated by recapturing the junction town of Owerri following a lengthy siege. Last week Biafran units were moving slowly southward from Owerri toward the oilfields around Port Harcourt. The Biafran strategy is not so much to regain lost territory as to prolong the standoff and inflict federal casualties until the Nigerians agree to peace talks and grant them independence. Toward such a goal, Count von Rosen's air force, however Lilliputian, is a significant help. As soon as his squadron has effectively disabled Nigerian airpower on the ground, Von Rosen intends to use his planes in close-up tactical air support of the Biafran troops.



Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,941667,00.html#ixzz1asWHBc2d"

 

[MikeGazdik]

With those restrictions, i'd take the Beech Bonanza, with a straight tail.

You and Evanglider may be on to something. I wonder how much airframe strengthening is done on the Mentor?

What about a Mooney? The airframe is supposed to be incredibley strong. But I also understand it is very stable, so I wonder how it would do in hard rolls and hard turns.

Everybody, I understand these airframes would quickly be taxed beyond what they are rated at. Thats the fun. Kind of like an end of civilization situation, doomsday thing. The only thing laying around is all those 4 place family transports sitting at the local airport, so thats what we use!! No turbo props! The military used up all the jet fuel ( and diesel !)

 

[tomo pauk]

Utva 75 armed with AT rocket launchers, overflying town I was born at. Picture taken probably in 1991.
Belonged to the 4th brigade of Croatian Army (later 4th Guards brigade, the one that took Serb held city of Knin in Croatia, along with 7th Guards Bde, while my 126th was just east of them those days. A commander of an armored unit of the 4th Guards was late Andrija Matijaš, called Pauk (=Spider in English); born in a small town my daughter goes to kindergarten)

Utva 75 4BRG :: Fotkica.com

At Zemunik/Zadar, 1995, same type:

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/639/untitledscanned01hx5.jpg

 

[Park]

Back in the 80's I was lucky enough to work for an aircraft salesman and I flew 86 different makes and models and I can say (the statue of limitations has run out ) I could make a Piper PA-28-140 do everything but cook. Remember ***** galore ? !

 

[vikingBerserker]

Joe that's cool has heck!

 

[tyrodtom]

Sounds like it would be replaying WW1, those guys were never too sure when a wing might fold on them, and very, very few had parachutes.
At leaste a Cessna 150 Acrobat was stressed for 6 G's +, and 3-, with seats adaptable to seat chutes, and jetsonable doors.

But can you imagine a quik exit out of a Bonanza, or Cherokee.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Joe that's cool has heck!

Yep - Carl Von Rosen leveled half of the Nigerian AF with a GA aircraft back in 1968.

 

[Aaron Brooks Wolters]

That's impressive to say the least. He through odds out the door and used surprise and ingenuity along with flying talent to the utmost.