Mosquito versus the German fighters

[helmitsmit]

I am interested in finding the comparitive speeds between the mosquito and the german fighters. Particually at specific altitudes and with either the low or high blown merlin.

Also, I have heard many reports about the mossie being hard to escort because it cruised too fast! Any coments welcome!

 

[Jabberwocky]

I am interested in finding the comparitive speeds between the mosquito and the german fighters. Particually at specific altitudes and with either the low or high blown merlin.

Also, I have heard many reports about the mossie being hard to escort because it cruised too fast! Any coments welcome!

Depends on the mark of Mossie, its engine and associated equipment.

Early Mosquitos (MKs I - VII, and the later NF and FB variant) had single stage Merlin 20 family engines.

Top speed initally was in the order of 365-370 mph, with Merlin 21 or 23 engines. These were usually Bombers (Mk IV) or Night Fighters (NF Mk II), and typically had the early saxophone exhausts, which cost between 5 and 10 mph, depending on height.

Early marks with single stage Merlins had a high speed cruise of between 325 and 340 mph, at 15,000 - 19,000 mph.

The early marks of Mosquito recieved a lot of refinements in performance over the years of the war. B Mk IVs maxed out at 360 mph with Merlin 21s and matt paint. The RAF found they could get 10 mph by using a smooth gloss paint, so switched over. They then went to Merlin 23s with multi stub exhausts, and increased the rating on the engine from +12 lbs to +14 and then +16. Eventually, after many modifications, the B MK IVs could do 380 mph with bombs on board and 385 mph with bombs gone.

Late war night fighters with single stage Merlins could get up to about 390 mph. There is even a RAE report of a Mk XIX with Merlin 25s tested at 394 mph at 2,000 feet with No2 and 377 mph without. Some Mossies were also modified for V1 chasing and their engines were boosted to +23 lbs using 150 octane fuel, and could do 355 mph on the deck.

Later Mosquito variants usually had two stage Merlin (60 family) and were significantly faster at much higher altitudes.

Typically, they performed at the 405-415 mph maximum speed range, usually at 24-27,000 feet.

Maximum cruise was between 350 and 370 mph, at anywhere from 20,000 to 31,000 feet, depending on the exact mark of two stage Merlin it was fitted with. Very late marks, could even high speed cruise at 390 mph, at 32000 feet

 

[helmitsmit]

yeah i know, i was just interested in the combat situation when being chased by the german fighters.

 

[timshatz]

Looking at Jabberwocky's specs, I would guess the Luftwaffe probably wasn't going to catch a Mosquito if they didn't have an altitude advantage on them (or knew well in advance that they were coming-which amounts to the same thing as an altitude advantage). Speeds were just too close.

 

[Lucky13]

Is it true that the Luftwaffe awarded a pilot that shot down a Mosquito with TWO kills instead for one?

 

[Erich]

Lucky :

no they did not

Tim :

yes the 109AS had to have an altitude advnatage to drop down on Mossie NF's or the LSNF in which they were successful at times.

with the advent of the Me262A-1a of Kommando Welter, it did not matter, the Mossie always lost. All of this will be in our book

E ~

 

[drgondog]

interesting and great airframe.

If only the Brits could fill all the orders, Bud Peaslee would have selected the Mossie as the 8th AF Scouts instead of the Mustang. Would have simplified training and operations over the P-51 and P-38.

First, it cruised much faster and had all the range needed. Second as a two person crew you could put an experienced navigator on board - without having to qualify a bomber pilot who was also an experienced navigator as was required to be a Scout in a Mustang.

Last, it would have been easier to train a B-17 or B-24 pilot to fly a Mossie than it was to 're-train' multi engine to single engine fighter like a 51.

So, the compromise was to mix re-trained bomber pilots to lead, skilled fighter pilots to fly wing ,in future Mustang Scout Weather/Force Recon missions to end of war.

At the 355th, home of Eperimental (Peaslee) Scouts and 2nd Scout Force all bomber pilots had to interview and be checked out by my father (the Deputy Gp CO of 355th) after too many were killed in the transition with both AT-6 and P-51.

Probably would have had a better safety record with the Mossie. I know I voted C-47 for contribution overall, everywhere but I think this beast was the Best Airframe built after WWII started.

If I had to pick two a/c to start and finish WWII with, the Mossie and the Gooney bird would be my choices.

Regards,

Bill

 

[Lucky13]

It's just another one of those myths then Erich? I was just asking because I heard it on a program about the Mosquito that I was watching.

Cheers!

 

[Erich]

propaganda goof Herr Goeb. wanted to institute a special award for downing a Mossie. Fact was as they were flying recon ops that single engine day fighter units like JG 1 and JG 11 were intercepting them on a mildly regular basis, as JG 300 the III, gruppe was also doing this in early 1944 the special 10th staffel was given the task of intercepting them and nothing else used in the eve's over the Reich while a new day 10th staffel was put back in III. gruppe for flight with Mustangs and heavy bombers. NJG 11 S/E 109's also were on anti-Mossie duties until the switch over to hunting RAF heavies as their success were very marginal. Kommando Welter was derived from the above, Kurt testing several prop and jet jobs to see what he thought was suitable until he came up with his somewhat successful Kommando on the single seat 262. no special award, it was the duty of the pilot and he was given a kill as he would receive whether day or night upon confirmation

 

[Kurfürst]

Is it true that the Luftwaffe awarded a pilot that shot down a Mosquito with TWO kills instead for one?

I think you may mix it up with victory points awarded (only in west), which were not the same as 'kills' awarded. In the LW, it 1 shot down aircraft was always 1 'kill'.

There were also a pointing system, which awarded different point based on damaging the enemy aircraft or shooting it down, and how many engines it had 1, 2 or 4. Based on that a Mosquito (a twin engine) would worth more 'points' than a Spitfire (a single engined fighter), and a B-17 4-engine more than a Mosquito.

However these points had a meaning only with regards of the militiary awards decorations handed out, like the Iron cross etc. There was no special points for a Mosquito, you got the same as for any other twin engine.

The Rumanian air force OTOH was awarding multiple kills for multiengines.

 

[Erich]

Kurfürst sometimes yes and sometimes no. during latter part of 44 when everything broke down for the LW many kills-claims and reports were lost and then not even credited unless it was privately posted in the pilots/crews flugbuch

 

[drgondog]

I think you may mix it up with victory points awarded (only in west), which were not the same as 'kills' awarded. In the LW, it 1 shot down aircraft was always 1 'kill'.

What "west' air force are you referring to that awarded multiple awards of any kind for the destruction of one aircraft? Certainly not the RAF or USAAF.

 

[SoD Stitch]

Best answer by Erich; only LW plane(s) that could catch a Mosquito in a tail-chase were the Me 262, 163 and He 162, but the 163 didn't have the endurance. A Ta 152 would be able to catch a Mossie at altitude, but it might take a while.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

What "west' air force are you referring to that awarded multiple awards of any kind for the destruction of one aircraft? Certainly not the RAF or USAAF.

He is saying that the Lufwaffe awarded points in the West as in West Front.

 

[pbfoot]

The mossie if you ever listened to the crews cruised at about 240 knots its a good speed for making the engine last and at 240 its easy for the nav to do his plotting of position using the old formula of distance = time x rate or 240 mph equals 4 miles a minute.

 

[merlin]

I do not recall if it was Spaatz or Eaker, but one senior US Air Force General, issued an instruction to his fighter pilots, banning them from 'racing' with 'Mossies' when returning from missions. Apparently it was bad for morale being passed by them!!

 

[Glider]

The mossie if you ever listened to the crews cruised at about 240 knots its a good speed for making the engine last and at 240 its easy for the nav to do his plotting of position using the old formula of distance = time x rate or 240 mph equals 4 miles a minute.

I am reading a book on the History of 2 Group that used Mossies in the daylight raids over Europe and Germany.
They tended to cruise at 270 - 290 mph and it was this that they felt gave the Germans the biggest difficulty in interception. From Radio intercepts from the Y service it became clear that the Germans did their intercept calculations based on a cruising speed of 250 mph. This went on for about 9 months before the Germans twigged what the real figures were.

 

[pbfoot]

I am reading a book on the History of 2 Group that used Mossies in the daylight raids over Europe and Germany.
They tended to cruise at 270 - 290 mph and it was this that they felt gave the Germans the biggest difficulty in interception. From Radio intercepts from the Y service it became clear that the Germans did their intercept calculations based on a cruising speed of 250 mph. This went on for about 9 months before the Germans twigged what the real figures were.

 

[mhuxt]

I am reading a book on the History of 2 Group that used Mossies in the daylight raids over Europe and Germany.

What book is that glider? Looking for some additions to my library.

 

[Glider]

The book is a second hand one that I found on Holiday. Its written by Michael J. F. Bowyer and called '2 Group RAF A Complete History 1936-1945.'

The book is over 500 pages and the detail is extrordinary. For example as you would expect there are a number of photo's of aircraft in them. However, what I have never seen before, is in the caption for most of the aircraft includes the dates when it entered service and when it was destroyed, struck off, whatever.

If your interested they seem to average out at about 9 months in front line service, which for a WW2 aircraft is longer than I expected.