Mosquito vs The Rest

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by stona, Jun 6, 2013.

  1. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    There has been much discussion of the relative merits of the De Havilland Mosquito and it's various Luftwaffe counterparts (Fw 187, Ta 154, Me 210/410, He 219 and the rest)

    I believe there is one simple hypothetical question that we should be asking.

    If, in 1940, after the flight of the Mosquito prototype, the Germans had been offered the type would they have been wise to take it and abandon all the rest?

    To me at least the answer is obviously yes.

    Can anyone advance an argument that they'd be better off without it and should continue to develop numerous different aircraft to carry out the roles that the Mosquito demonstrated itself, in operational service, to be capable of doing.

    Cheers

    Steve
     
  2. riacrato

    riacrato Member

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    They are getting it together with the necessary fuels and materials (such as exotic woods) they didn't have? Then the answer is probably yes.
    If not then: no.
     
  3. Tante Ju

    Tante Ju Banned

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    #3 Tante Ju, Jun 6, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2013
    Like 4 x 250 lbs (454 kg) worth bombs...? Types in development (in particular the 210) that seem to offer (at the time) twice that bombload to be carried at equal speed, possessing no blind spots and armament for self defense ?

    Heinkel's projekt P.1055 offered, at the time, a fast bomber capable of 750 kph, self defense armament, pressurized cocpit, ejection seat and capable of carrying a two twon bomb load, and having 4000+ km range.
     
  4. wuzak

    wuzak Well-Known Member

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    It was quickly realised that 4 x 500lb could be used in the Mosquito's bomb bay. It also used 2 x 1000lb GP and MC bombs.

    The Mosquito could, and did, fly rings around the Me 210. The argument for the Mosquito was that its defence was its speed, and so it proved.


    And how much of that was reality, and how much was fantasy?

    It isn't surprising that the P.1055 would carry a larger load, considering its larger size and pair of coupled powerplants.

    The P.1055 would not appear in the same timeframe as the Mosquito.
     
  5. cimmex

    cimmex Member

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  6. Tante Ju

    Tante Ju Banned

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    How quickly? The idea of the thread that in 1940 the plane is offered for the RLM. At the time its still just a prototype with teething troulbes, offering to carry just four tiny 250 lbs bombs, competing with other prototype with teething troulbes for an order, and all of them asking for two (in case of the P 1055, four, really) engines.

    When and where and in what configuration and penalties?

    Examples please.

    Fact: when introduced, the Mosquito had twice the loss rate than other ordinary twin engined bombers. Doesn't seem to me its speed was such a great defense. In the end, it had to employ the same tactics as other RAF bombers: to hide in the dark and avoid LW's SE day fighters completely.

    Fact: it achieved marvelously low loss rate when nobody was flying to intercept it, i.e. at the end of the war.

    Fantasy vs reality is not relevant, and it is un-ascertainable in any case for a plane that was never built. The P.1055, with its specs, however, was on the RLM's table in 1940. They declined it on the basis of complexity.
     
  7. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    Good grief!
     
  8. wuzak

    wuzak Well-Known Member

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    I believe the Mosquito was designed around 4 x 250lb GP or 2 x 500lb GP bombs. The Mosquito entered service with a maximum load of 2000lbs - not 1000lbs.

    Teething troubles - some minor issues with installation (like undercarriage doors not closing fully in flight) and some moderate buffeting at speed. The latter was not considered serious enough to delay production, and was solved quickly with experiments on W4050 - the prototype.


    In the standard bomb bay of a Mosquito B.IV (ie the first bomber). Both 1000lb GP and 1000lb MC (GP ~30% charge to weight, MC ~50%) were used in the raid by 627 squadron on the Gestapo headquarters in Oslo, December 1944. Though it was later in the war, they used standard B.IVs.

    Gestapo raid 1944.jpg


    The prototype W4050 outpaced a Spitfire. Service B.IV series i were capable of 365-370mph. B.IV series ii with ejector exhausts 380mph. What was the Me 210's best - 350mph?


    Is that fact? Show me the numbers. Which other RAF twin engined bombers are you talking about?

    Initial loss rates were high simply because the numbers used on operations were small. Often as little as 6 aircraft on a mission.

    So one from 6 is 16% loss rate. If there were 12 it is likely that still only one would be lost.

    It is the same theory the USAAF 8thAF used. In early 1943 some raids were losing as many aircraft as were lost in the Schweinfurt missions. But the loss rates were less - because they sent many more aircraft.

    Mosquitos tended to be used on higher risk operations than their other twin engined bombers. More often sent deeper into enemy territory, beyond fighter escort range.

    And when they operated with other RAF twins, they had to compromise their performance so as to not leave the others behind.

    Also, if the Mosquito saw the German s/e fighter it was able to, more often than not, outpace it.


    In the same night skies where Lancasters and Halifaxes were being slaughtered, Mosquito loss rates were much less. Even when they flew specifically to draw the defenders away.

    Even at the end of the war their loss rates were lower than the heavies.


    Right, it was a paper plane that was years away from fruition. Even if the RLM wanted it, they couldn't have it now - they would have to wait 2 years, minimum.
     
  9. rochie

    rochie Well-Known Member

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    another possibly good thread ruined because it is proved anything designed and built in Britain is proven to be utter crap, didnt do anything in WW2 and only achieved any success because the Luftwaffe let it be successful and all these Luftwaffe wunder weapons that existed on paper but would of magically worked exactly as projected if not better and would of been ready on time every time but it was just that Germany wanted to give the allies a sporting chance so didnt build any of them !

    why do i keep looking in these threads when i know how it is going to turn out ?
     
  10. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    Well it was a hypothetical question (the assumption is that they could produce it so, yes, they have the relevant materials and engines) inviting a counter argument.

    I included the words "in operational service" in my post to try and prevent all the fantasy German paper 'planes being proposed as examples of aircraft that may or may not have been capable designs. You might as well propose a super sonic Spitfire.

    The Mosquito existed and flew in 1940.

    I'm not seeing a coherent counter argument which more or less confirms what I expected.

    Cheers

    Steve
     
  11. riacrato

    riacrato Member

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    A controversial thread seemingly started for the purpose of proving everything designed and built in Germany was utter crap. What do you expect?:rolleyes:
     
  12. Tante Ju

    Tante Ju Banned

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    You did not. You made a vague reference to be able to perform the duties the Mosquito historically did (which wasn't all that special, being the usual bomber/fighter/recce trio).

    And certainly was not in operational service in 1940. In fact, not really operational until late 1942.

    The RLM would be fine with the Mosquito, if that whats you want to hear and be blind and deaf for anything else. It could get some bomb load rather farther away than existing Jabos, and given the general low speed of RAF fighters in the first half of the war, gotten away with it many times. It was more or less comparable to the RLM own light bomber development (Me 210/410) and as such could replace it.

    But you question was however whether the RLM would be shocked and awed in 1940 by a wooden aircraft prototype which was proposed at the time to be capable a tiny bomb load (and hardly dropped any great number of bombs until 1943 in reality), years away from real operational service, no weapons and no multi-role capacity whatsoever which the RLM wanted, requiring the import of exotic woods from overseas when aluminium was readily available for the aviation industry and easier to mass produce, well, then the answer is a definite NO, especially given that they already had the multi-role Me 210 with comparable performance and having flown a year before in 1939, so at least apparently, further advanced in development (and in the end, turned out to be operationally ready at the same time as the Mosquito).

    Though IMO they did not need so much diversification or light bombers at all, all they would be needing was to cancel all twin engined bomber production in favor of the Ju 88/188. It takes the same two engines, and delivers more with simpler production and logistics.
     
  13. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    That is absolutely not the case. I am and always have been an admirer of German aircraft. The German aircraft of WW2 had roots in some of the most advanced aerodynamic designs of the time. You can advance a good argument that German aerodynamic research led the world in the 1930s. You could argue that it still did at the end of the war.

    There are many reasons why the Germans never produced an aircraft like the Mosquito but none of them are anything to do with a lack of capability. We had men like Beaverbrook and Nelson in charge, converting our economies onto a real war time footing. Let's just say Nazi Germany didn't.

    I am not arguing that German designs were "utter crap". I am arguing that they were trumped by a surprisingly uncomplicated stroke of genius and that the de Havilland Mosquito was one of the great aircraft of WW2.

    Cheers

    Steve
     
  14. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    Ignore the material considerations, this is a hypothetical question.

    Is your argument that given a straight choice between the Mosquito and the Me 210 you would take the Me 210?

    Incidentally I agree with you about the Ju 188, in the real world.

    Cheers

    Steve
     
  15. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/ju88-luftwaffes-mosquito-34542.html
    If the Ju88 wasn't compromised in its original design/intent, it could have been a Mosquito-esque aircraft until 1942/3. Keep close to the concept of the Ju88S, which was the V3 prototype version with some improvements, and the Ju88 would have been the early, metal version of the Mosquito, except with a rear defense gunner and smaller internal bomb load. Though I should note that the V3 prototype could carry external ordnance and would have been operational with a top speed in excess of 300mph with internal bomb load only or with 2000kg external bomb load around 300mph.

    In 1940 that would have been very hard for the Hurricane Mark I to intercept, which was the primary bomber killer in the BoB given its top speed of 316mph; the later Mark II, which only appeared in small numbers in late September 1940, wouldn't have had a problem catching the Ju88, but once the Jumo engine upgrade pushes the horsepower up, and assuming the LW doesn't add extra weight to the frame for some reason, a serious potentiality, then the Ju88 stays speed competitive. Plus once the later engines appear the Ju88S shows what sort of speed the Ju88 could be capable of in 1942-45.
     
  16. DonL

    DonL Banned

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    #16 DonL, Jun 6, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2013
    Nobody can deny this stona, from a rational viewpoint.
    I also have serious doubts, that the Me 210/410 is at the same leage, to my opinion very far away.
    But it is no secret that to me the Bf 210/410 is a bunch of crap not worthy to be developed.

    My fear of a german Moussie (equal to the original) is, that the RLM would try to design a dive bomber out of it, with dive breaks, much heavier and less good aerodynamics. As a nightfighter, a operational german Moussie at 1941 had not a single original german counterpart (even not my prefered a/c) and I would say even till the end of the war.

    Perhaps a Ju 88 which would be developed from the start to a nightfighter, without all this dive bombing crap, but then you can argue speed against little more range and arnament. A other question is, could a Moussie carry "Schräge Musik".
     
  17. Dogwalker

    Dogwalker Member

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    The kind of woods the Mosquito was built, were not readily avaliable for the Germans.
    Even if they had been, the wooden construction is labour-intensive, while the Germans were doing everything possible to reduce the labour needed to produce their aircrafts.
    So, unless De Havilland could propose a metal Mosquito, I think Germans would have declined the offer anyway.
    If De Havilland could propose a metal Mosquito, then we have to see if the Germans might need it. In the light of how it the war went, what would the Luftwaffe do with the Mosquito? The availiability of the Mosquito for the LW, would have had a real influence on the conduct of the air war?
    And finally, if we can assume that the Mosquito would have been historically useful for the LW, we need to see if the plane that could have been proposed in 1940, would fit the vision of the air war that the Germans had in mind in 1940.
     
  18. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    Yes. I think the saddest indictment of the Me 210/410 is that when Siegfried Knemeyer became Chief of Development under Milch in November 1943 he made it clear that he did not believe that the type was suitable as a high speed bomber or destroyer. This after years of development and millions of Reichmarks.
    It sort of sums the whole debacle up.
    Cheers
    Steve
     
  19. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    I've often heard the Me 210 was an unstable failure and rightfully so. But most of the same sources say the Me 410 was basically a 210 that had been fixed. The automatic leading edge slats achieved improved handling, too.

    I've seen some pretty complimenrtary things written about the Me 410. Seems like it was decently fast and could cruise at 360 mph or so. Of course, it was no match for Allied single-seat day fighters, but had some success when the bombers weren't closely escorted.

    Was the Me 410 really nearly as bad as the Me 210? Or was it what the Me 210 was supposed to be from the start?

    I think they were mostly used in the recomaissance role from the summer of 1944 onward, but that is necessary duty, too. I know production was cancelled in August 1944, but that was to concentrate on emergency fighter production rather than for cause as far as I know.
     
  20. DonL

    DonL Banned

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    #20 DonL, Jun 6, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2013
    The main problematic of the early ME 210 was it's design, it had very problematic flight characteristics with several accidents.

    Mainly a lenghten fulsage next to the automatic leading edge slats.

    The ME 410 had DB 603 engines, so much more power then the ME 210

    The ME 210 reached with 2 x 1350 PS DB 601F 565 km/h
    The ME 210 reached with 2 x 1475 PS DB 605A 580 km/h

    That was far away from the estimated performance and the promises from Messerschmitt, at the beginning of development 1937 and less speed then the Bf 110 with the same engines.

    Do you think that an a/c (imagine for the RAF), that should have replaced a Beaufighter 1941/42 (at the RAF),which would be slower, would be named a success?
     
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