helmitsmit
Airman 1st Class
Anyone got any info about how the mossie and Ju88 faired against each other?
Mossie vs Ju88
- Thread starter helmitsmit
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Erich
the old Sage
now sir are you wanting to mention the Mossie fighter against the Ju 88A bomber or H recon craft or are you wanting to debate the night fighter versions with each other ??
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Im sure it is the nightfighter versions....
Yeah ...keep it at nightfighter versions only. I mean ..after all ...it is your zone of complete expertise, Erich. Were the NF Mosquitos actually feared by the Nachtjagd themselves ...or was it just propaganda? I mean - to be honest, I wouldn't have been too happy to meet a Mosquito.
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
I dont recall ever seeing any data to confirm that Mossies and -88's ever tangled....
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Full moon, searchlights.... Besides, it was rather difficult to identify ur target to begin with... Im sure erich is combing through some extensive material as I type here...
Erich
the old Sage
ok guys sure we can keep it in the NF mode till someone wants to add other stuff on the bomber/recon missions.
I had a conversation with one of the guys here I think last year on the fear factor concerning the Mossie. Been interviewing other German crews since that time and it seems to be an oddity almost. It appears that all German nf crews however experienced they were knew of the potential threat by the Mossie nf's but that the fear factor if you will seemed to effect some and not others. Several experiened crews never had to contend with them in the air on ops nor upon landing. Others unfortunately felt the quick four cannon blow to themselves on their very first mission and fell like a rock to their doom or bailed out wounded never to enter into another nf ever again.
It was standar practice for the what-if scenario of the Mossie or 2 to have very dimmed lights on the tarmac for landing German nf's or no lights at all. One crew like to have his mechanics wave a long dull yellow wand at runways end and they landed blind knowing that their man was at the end of the strip. Another would get to a certain hieght returning from an engagement and dive almost to the vertical on his field pulling up at the last minute to make a landing and then run his a/c almost off the field away from the hangers or dug in emplacements. by wars end the German nf's were sitting out like lame ducks rady to be pounced on as due to no fuel reserves and literally no time to build suitable hangers the a/c were covered with tarps to conceal them if they were in open turf. If by a landmark of trees they of course were 'brushed' with debris and pushed back into the forest until ready to be pulled out for the next operation. As to Mossie convergance the Ju 88G-6 crews made sure the Rückswart ( rear ward facing radar) was in perfect order as their lives could very well depend on it. It wa also during this time that Ju 88G-6 crews added another crewmen to observe for Mossies as well as add for another eyewitness to a "kill". With the cramped quarters as they were I can only imagine this extra set of eyes nearly sat in the rear gunners lap, with the MG 131 and it's ammo and besides this extra chap would also run the FuG 350Z Naxos which was also standard equipment by 1945
IV./NJG 3 Ju's at wars end: Denmark
I had a conversation with one of the guys here I think last year on the fear factor concerning the Mossie. Been interviewing other German crews since that time and it seems to be an oddity almost. It appears that all German nf crews however experienced they were knew of the potential threat by the Mossie nf's but that the fear factor if you will seemed to effect some and not others. Several experiened crews never had to contend with them in the air on ops nor upon landing. Others unfortunately felt the quick four cannon blow to themselves on their very first mission and fell like a rock to their doom or bailed out wounded never to enter into another nf ever again.
It was standar practice for the what-if scenario of the Mossie or 2 to have very dimmed lights on the tarmac for landing German nf's or no lights at all. One crew like to have his mechanics wave a long dull yellow wand at runways end and they landed blind knowing that their man was at the end of the strip. Another would get to a certain hieght returning from an engagement and dive almost to the vertical on his field pulling up at the last minute to make a landing and then run his a/c almost off the field away from the hangers or dug in emplacements. by wars end the German nf's were sitting out like lame ducks rady to be pounced on as due to no fuel reserves and literally no time to build suitable hangers the a/c were covered with tarps to conceal them if they were in open turf. If by a landmark of trees they of course were 'brushed' with debris and pushed back into the forest until ready to be pulled out for the next operation. As to Mossie convergance the Ju 88G-6 crews made sure the Rückswart ( rear ward facing radar) was in perfect order as their lives could very well depend on it. It wa also during this time that Ju 88G-6 crews added another crewmen to observe for Mossies as well as add for another eyewitness to a "kill". With the cramped quarters as they were I can only imagine this extra set of eyes nearly sat in the rear gunners lap, with the MG 131 and it's ammo and besides this extra chap would also run the FuG 350Z Naxos which was also standard equipment by 1945
IV./NJG 3 Ju's at wars end: Denmark
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Interesting... So the threat from Mossie in the night was a very real problem for the -88's???
Were there any confirmed Mossie kills by those crews???
Great pic BTW...
Were there any confirmed Mossie kills by those crews???
Great pic BTW...
Erich
the old Sage
guys you are 3 posts ahead of me 
yes in fact Ju 88G-6's and Mossies XIX and XXX's did tangle on many an occassion. ACe Werner Hoffmann of I./NJG 5 was shot down by one, and he and his crew bailed out at the last second before their Ju blew sky high.
Just briefly and I know this is going to bend a few guys a bit but the He 219A's were at a disadvnatage on most missions. Of all things to not equip the hopeful star performer of the nachtjagd without rear warning radar. Ture it was fitted from time to time but was not a standard fit and the crew paid for it with their lives......
Friend and ace Heinz Rokker of I./NJG 2 shot down one Mossie NF towards the last 2-3 months of the war close to St. Trond airfield.
without digging out the data, it appears the best response a Ju 88G-6 crew to do was fly allow the tickling of the radar headset to get louder and then bank in a most severe way downward either right or left toward the earth, or literally dropping flaps, the undercarriage and brake for dear life and allow the Mossie to overfly (this happened on several ops) and hopeful you could speed up and be the pursuer. At least on 2 missions with 2 different pilots this trick worked, and they were able to shoot down the Mossies. other times it just worked long enough to drive hard for the haze below and get lost in ground radiance which would plug up the Allied AI
yes in fact Ju 88G-6's and Mossies XIX and XXX's did tangle on many an occassion. ACe Werner Hoffmann of I./NJG 5 was shot down by one, and he and his crew bailed out at the last second before their Ju blew sky high.
Just briefly and I know this is going to bend a few guys a bit but the He 219A's were at a disadvnatage on most missions. Of all things to not equip the hopeful star performer of the nachtjagd without rear warning radar. Ture it was fitted from time to time but was not a standard fit and the crew paid for it with their lives......
Friend and ace Heinz Rokker of I./NJG 2 shot down one Mossie NF towards the last 2-3 months of the war close to St. Trond airfield.
without digging out the data, it appears the best response a Ju 88G-6 crew to do was fly allow the tickling of the radar headset to get louder and then bank in a most severe way downward either right or left toward the earth, or literally dropping flaps, the undercarriage and brake for dear life and allow the Mossie to overfly (this happened on several ops) and hopeful you could speed up and be the pursuer. At least on 2 missions with 2 different pilots this trick worked, and they were able to shoot down the Mossies. other times it just worked long enough to drive hard for the haze below and get lost in ground radiance which would plug up the Allied AI
Erich
the old Sage
Les overall the German night fighter arm knew that unless they were on the ball on every mission they could be shot down by Allied nf's especially the Mossie. It is just that for some crews they personally felt that the most concern they had was the RAF 4 engine heavy and the return fire of the .303's ! strange eh. losing power, or hits from the mg's on critical areas could then mean they were dead meat in the air for any allied twin engine fighter. both RAF and German Ju 88's radar implements could detect one another, it largely depended on whom was the quicker on the ID and the firing button. I have to think from interviews, reading, and chatting with other research friends, archival documentation that in most instances the German crews that were shot down were under great fatigue and became careless as there is enough losses reports mentioning the Ju shot down in action (im Luftkampf bei nachtjäger). Evidently the radio man was able to call in to say they were under attack..........many times too late. Also truth must be made of the landing shoot downs and the many accidents of pilots not paying attention during a landing approach and due to Mossie scares.
Reality for the German nf force shows that the He 219 gruppe I./NJG 1 and the Bf 110G-4 units suffered the most at the hands of RAF night fighters primarily the Mossie. Again I share my feelings that the Ju 88G-1 and especially the G-6 version was equipped with very suitable rear warning means.
Reality for the German nf force shows that the He 219 gruppe I./NJG 1 and the Bf 110G-4 units suffered the most at the hands of RAF night fighters primarily the Mossie. Again I share my feelings that the Ju 88G-1 and especially the G-6 version was equipped with very suitable rear warning means.
Erich
the old Sage
a quick reply as my hands are getting very tired with this carperal tunnel
here is a pic of a NJG 4 Ju 88G-6 fitted with the latest Berlin 240a-1 radar set - AI. the machine has been pulled out of the trees at wars end for examination.
here is a pic of a NJG 4 Ju 88G-6 fitted with the latest Berlin 240a-1 radar set - AI. the machine has been pulled out of the trees at wars end for examination.
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
VERY interesting erich, good stuff.......
Yeah, excellent information and great pictures. Did the Allies know the Nachtjagd system and send NF Mossies to harass them in their own area ...or was it an active patrol of the bomber lanes to intercept any Nachtjagd that went in against the bombers? The Mossies would also harass the Germans at their own airfields right? Aside from the pest bomber Mossies that actually went out to bomb these airfields ...did the NF chase 'em home ?
Sal Monella
Airman 1st Class
Perhaps a more interesting comparison would be the Ju-188 against the Mosquito.
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Oh BTW, erich, I just purchased Jagdgeschwader 52 : The Experten, and Jagdgeschwader 301/302 "Wilde Sau".... U recommended Willies book awhile back.....
Is the other one also a good book?
Is the other one also a good book?
Erich
the old Sage
Sal if you want to open up by giving some info go ahead as I am all ears. I can give German accts of nf's and that is about it concerning the evasion and ops against Mossies. If one of our English historians can fill us in on Mossies tactics agasint German Nf's or bombers would love to read about it....
Reschkes book should be great Les, but not sure of the JG 52 title.
Plan I'll be back to answer your questions on the morrow
Reschkes book should be great Les, but not sure of the JG 52 title.
Plan I'll be back to answer your questions on the morrow
Glider
Captain
Some Mossies were ordered to maintain patrol patterns to protect the bomber streams but after a certain time they could go freelancing when it up to individual crews as to what they should do. Other planes would be detailed to harass the german nightfighters.
I have read acconts where pilots concentrated on areas around the beacons the Germans used, others would try to contrate on the airfields. Some even tried going into the bomber stream to identify the German fighters that had made it that far.
As a result as Erich indicated the German fighter crews felt that they were the hunted almost from the moment they started up their engines until landing.
I have read about experiments using what we would call early airbourne control units where master fighter control planes guided RAF fighters into areas of German activity. These reached operational trials but the idea was ahead of the technology and it didn't work.
Certainly the Navy had specially equipped fighter control ships with extra radar and communication facilities to control nightfighters in the early days of an invasion.
The USN developed similar ships to be used as radar pickets to give advance warning of suicide attacks.
I have read acconts where pilots concentrated on areas around the beacons the Germans used, others would try to contrate on the airfields. Some even tried going into the bomber stream to identify the German fighters that had made it that far.
As a result as Erich indicated the German fighter crews felt that they were the hunted almost from the moment they started up their engines until landing.
I have read about experiments using what we would call early airbourne control units where master fighter control planes guided RAF fighters into areas of German activity. These reached operational trials but the idea was ahead of the technology and it didn't work.
Certainly the Navy had specially equipped fighter control ships with extra radar and communication facilities to control nightfighters in the early days of an invasion.
The USN developed similar ships to be used as radar pickets to give advance warning of suicide attacks.
Glider
Captain
Erich. I meant to add that your posts on this topic are really very good and always informative.
Interesting stuff Erich and Glider. Nice pics as well Erich!
