KrazyKraut
Banned
- 337
- Apr 21, 2008
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Great reasoning: The 109 is crap because Germany didn't win the war.Like parsifal, I think the 109 is overrated, and if fact could be considered an overall failure. It was supposed to be an air superiority fighter, (Luftwaffe was designed to support ground operations, and it needed air superiority to do that), but the 109 failed in it's air superiority role in BoB, Malta, North Africa, and eventually in Russia, over the channel (where the FW190 took it's place mid war) and in their own air space over Germany in 43/44/45. Really, all of the 109s success (strategically and tactically, I'm not talking about individual successes), were against older obsolete airforces such as Poland,the Low Counties and USSR in 1941/42. Toughest nut it cracked was France.
Maybe most objective definition of 'overrated' is how often a given audience will misunderstand actual facts about a plane's operational history. Even if everybody has different opinions based on the same agreed facts, that's not as important as misunderstanding of fact. Which facts are misunderstood will depend on the audience, though.
I voted Spitfire with a reasonably well informed audience in mind, because there tends to be IMO the most stubborn refusal to admit to the often mediocre operational record of mid-mark Spitfires, and the relative lack of importance of the later mark Spits to the outcome of the war, even among such people. In first case there's still a strong tendency to quote Spit success in terms of Brit claims whereas in many cases in period ca. 1941-43 the results look quite different from the German side, or considering both sides' reported losses only. In the second case post 1943 the Spitfire was increasingly really successful in fighter-fighter exchange ratio but the real action v the German fighter force shifted to Germany and the Spit couldn't reach (until bases were established near the German border late in the war). The Spit's overall success in the BoB is a valid reason to consider early mark Spits successful and important fighters. Also, from a purely technical POV late mark Spits were excellent a/c compared to contemporaries. But again the rose colored (or often 'coloured') glasses on the plane-for-plane operational success 1941-43 and operational importance after 1943 is why it wins my overrated award.
On P-51, if someone's level of background and interest is limited to 'rah rah' individual a/c books that present *all* planes' operational records in the best possible light based on claims, and junky TV documentaries, then OK the P-51 is overrated, perhaps massively depending how junky the sources. But it's less overrated by refusal to accept its real record, among people who should know better, than the Spitfire is, IMO.
The Zero is claimed to be overrated compared to some monumental reputation...except very few people especially Americans or Europeans seem to credit it such a reputation. So I don't understand what it's supposed to be overrated compared to, in such an audience. Eventually a/c like the P-40 could meet it on equal terms in air combat...OK but the P-40 was basically a later airplane. And no other contemporary real fighter, certainly not the P-40 or F4F, could come anywhere near matching the radius of the Zero. That was a key factor in Japanese conquest (especially supported by *land based* Zeroes) of a pretty notable % of the earth's surface in just a few months; conquests it took the Allies, even with overwhelming industrial superiority, a few years to regain. Many discussions of the Zero fail to admit that at all or, 'OK long range, that's nice but...'. No, it wasn't just nice but a major influence on the early Pac War at a strategic level. The Zero is in the running for most *underrated* major fighter of WWII IMO.
I don't see the Bf109 as competing for either prize. There's seems a fairly widespread recognition that it had success in some periods/theaters of the war (or wars, WWII and Spanish Civil War), and didn't in others, for a variety of reasons. Like the Spitifre, pretty different a/c all called 'Bf109' were fielded over a long (in those days) period, but there seem to be fewer Bf109 fans who insist it was always a successful fighter across that whole period (which it wasn't) than Spit fans who claim the same (it also wasn't). Although there are people who do overrate the Bf109, as is true with *some* people for just about any fighter.
Joe
I said reasonably well informed, not perfectly informed. And by no means did I exclude bias, that's a very big 'unless' you're assuming thereInformed people (unless they are biased) do not over-rate things they are informed about. Generally, over-rating takes place by uninformed people. Since we are "all" informed people here :: we ourselves ought not to ever over-rate anything. . . . .
Hey don't take it so personal!
It is not like anyone said "Soren is overated!"
So applying this methodolgy, I thought it might be useful to look at some of the contenders
first one off the rank is the P-51
1) "What is the claim made for the aircraft?"
Some people claim that the P-51 was responsible for the defeat of the Luftwaffe in 1944-5
I would restate to say it soundly defeated the Luftwaffe over Germany in 1944-1945. Having said that, what you say is the claim that too many people embrace when they describe the Mustang.
2) "What is the truth about the aircraft?"
The Mustang played a big part in the destruction of the german Fighter force in 1944, however it was greatly assisted by the P-47 and P-38s, and in the tactical sphere by aircraft of the RAF, and other aircraft of the other allied airforces. Moreover, the conditions that made the Luftwaffe brittle in 1944 had been won, at cost in the preceding years by all manner of aircraft in tha allied inventory
While true for all of the MTO and ETO, the Mustang air and ground victories were significantly higher in total to both the P-47 and P-38 combined and most of them were over Germany where the RAF plus 9th AF and 8th AF P-47s could not compete except for France, Belgium and Holland and western Germany.
The P-38 in the ETO scored 260-161 (air-gnd destroyed) for the Mustang totals of 3368-3212.. to give you a perspective about the balance between the two long range escort fighters in the Batlle over Germany. Even in the 9th AF the 354th FG overshadowed the contributions of the P-47 and P-38 groups in the 9th AF air battle aspect
3) "What distance is there between the myth and the truth?
The Mustang can rightly claim the lions share for defeating the the LW in 1944. However it is far fetched to suggest or imply that it did this without great assistance
Absolutely correct. It is fair to say that the greatest part of the assistance was the bombers as 'bait' - which many 8th AF crews today feel that Doolittle/Spaatz did to them with the famous directive "seek them in the air, on the ground" in January 1944.
I would rate the difference between the myth and the truth as moderate
Drgondog said:Absolutely correct. It is fair to say that the greatest part of the assistance was the bombers as 'bait' - which many 8th AF crews today feel that Doolittle/Spaatz did to them with the famous directive "seek them in the air, on the ground" in January 1944.
What did jets do in WW2...zip.
Doesn't matter what the deal is because zip still equals zip.
Ifs and buts don't win wars.
Wait, are you telling me the Lightning only shot down 260 planes in the ETO????? If that's true, I had no idea it was that few.