My New IL2 Video Research Thread...

[lesofprimus]

OK David and Bill, time to get this together....

My next video is going to be a Tribute to Major Bert Marshall, Bill Marshall's Father (aka drgondog) , attempting to re-create the Escort mission on Sept 11th, 1944, of the 354th FS, 355th FG...

During this mission, Bill's Father Bert scored 2 109's destroyed and 1 109 damaged... Evidence shows that this damage was infact destroyed after crash landing on fire... The pilot was hit by 3 .50cal slugs and was out of the War...

Through some tireless research, Bill has been able to accuratly summize the events of the day, and with some help from some members here, I am attempting to make the most realistic recreation of an actual mission portrayed in the IL2 Sturmovik Gaming World...

David, heres what we got so far....

 

[lesofprimus]

We're gonna start with Red and Yellow Flights of the 354thFS... 8 ships... A mix of -51's... Gonna have some questions getting Zimmermans crate right....

Red Flight
One Marshall P-51D-10 WR-B "Jane III" 5 kills on canopy rail only
Two Zimmerman P-51D-5 WR-I looks same as Jane III no kills "Pittsburgh Smoker" NO PROFILE OR PICS
Three Johnson P-51D-5 WR-J "Sweet Dorsey"
Four Rafferty P-51B-15 w/Malcom Hood WR-P "The Iowa Beaut" Shown as WR-A in pics below erase scores, no kills, and replace Man O War...

 

[lesofprimus]

Yellow Flight (Not sure on -51 Subtype)
One Brown P-51D WR-Z "Hun Hunter Texas" 24 kills wavy drab camo on top
Two Spencer P-51B WR-Y "Dragon Wagon" Bird Cage Canopy Olive Drab Camo
Three Priest P-51D WR-E "Weepin Deacon II" NO SCORES ON CANOPY
Four Woolard P-51B-15 WR-W with Malcomm Hood Olive Drab Camo

 

[lesofprimus]

All -51's had 'half' invasion stripes....

 

[Amsel]

Looks like a great project! Good luck to ya. Your other movies are pretty good and I am looking forward to this one.

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

Looks pretty cool.

I Like the pic of the diving P-51.

 

[GrauGeist]

I'm finding some info on Zimmerman...

From a military forum (edited):

On the 2nd of November 1944, a P-51D Mustang from 355 FG/354 FS was crashed near Putten, Holland. The pilot, Albert A.Zimmerman was evaded and helped by brave Dutch Resistance.
They [said], Zimmerman was a Jew, and must be kept [from] the Germans. Zimmerman evaded/escaped and was later a L/Col.Ret.USAF. The nickname of his P-51D was Pittsburgh Smoker.

From the littlefriends database:

 

[lesofprimus]

I got all the info we need David, Im just sick as hell and in alot of pain right now....

 

[drgondog]

I'm finding some info on Zimmerman...

From a military forum (edited):

From the littlefriends database:

>On the 2nd of November 1944, a P-51D Mustang from 355 FG/354 FS was crashed near Putten, Holland. The pilot, Albert A.Zimmerman was evaded and helped by brave Dutch Resistance.
They [said], Zimmerman was a Jew, and must be kept [from] the Germans. Zimmerman evaded/escaped and was later a L/Col.Ret.USAF. The nickname of his P-51D was Pittsburgh Smoker.

True - but Zimmerman actually fought with the Dutch resistance until Holland finally cleared out in March - then returned home.

This is the ship he inherited from Clarence Graham in October, 1944. It had an interesting history in that it was a 'loaner' from the 4th FG for the last Shuttle Mission but stayed with the 355th.

 

[drgondog]

We're gonna start with Red and Yellow Flights of the 354thFS... 8 ships... A mix of -51's... Gonna have some questions getting Zimmermans crate right....

Red Flight
One Marshall P-51D-10 WR-B "Jane III" 5 kills on canopy rail only
Two Zimmerman P-51D-5 WR-I looks same as Jane III no kills "Pittsburgh Smoker" NO PROFILE OR PICS Changed as noted below
Three Johnson P-51D-5 WR-J "Sweet Dorsey"
Four Rafferty P-51B-15 w/Malcom Hood WR-P "The Iowa Beaut" Shown as WR-A in pics below erase scores, no kills, and replace Man O War...

Dan - good summary - one correction worth noting. Zimmerman was a new pilot and was flying WR-I which 'belonged' to Emil Perry - I just found the data but I don't have a pic of this one.

WR-I 414536 THUNDERWAGON P-51D-10 5 kills on canopy rail just like WR-B except for name and tail number.

This ship was shot down 11-09-44 strafing an airfield - flown by Hull who was POW.

 

[GrauGeist]

Dan, sorry to hear you're not feeling well, hope that doesn't last long!

I was trying my hand at finding details on Zimmerman's crate for the time period of September, which is turning out to be pretty difficult.

Bill, would Zimmerman have been flying Perry's rig on 11 September (as Thunderwagon), instead of Pittsburgh Smoker as his own?

 

[sturmer]

good luck guys, looking forward to this one

 

[lesofprimus]

Yea David, he woulda been in WR-I ThunderWagon P-51D-10 instead of -5...

 

[lesofprimus]

Also, the machines we're goin against will be Bf 109G-6's of 9. and 11./JG 53...

Got one pic from Bill and a profile I found... Maybe Erich can shed some light...

III. Gruppe:
White for 7./JG53, Red for 8./JG53, and Yellow for 9./JG53... Before change to 4 Staffeln

Gruppenkommandeure:

Hptm Werner Mölders, 1.11.39 - 5.6.40
Hptm Rolf Pingel (acting), 6.40 - 20.6.40
Hptm Harro Harder, 13.7.40 - 12.8.40
Hptm Wolf-Dietrich Wilcke, 13.8.40 - 18.5.42
Maj Erich Gerlitz, 5.42 - 10.42
Hptm Franz Götz, 10.42 - 17.1.45
Hptm Siegfried Luckenbach, 18.1.45 - 2.5.45
Hptm Wolfgang Ernst (acting), 4.45 - 2.5.45
Formed 1.11.39 in Wiesbaden-Erbenheim with:

Stab III./JG53 new
7./JG53 new
8./JG53 new
9./JG53 new

On 20.8.44 increased to 4 Staffeln:

9./JG53 unchanged
10./JG53 from the old 7./JG53
11./JG53 from the old 8./JG53
12./JG53 from crews of I./JG4

On 1.3.45 12./JG53 was disbanded

20.8.44 - 17.9.44 Mörtitz

 

[lesofprimus]

And the final component is going to be skins for the B-24's of the 2nd Air Div, 392ndBG, 578thBS...

White rudders
Black Mid Bar
DC behind waist gunner
"N" in black bar

Gonna need 4 different versions of the -24 skin... Theres gonna be 24 of em at 22,000 feet, but close ups require only 4....

Upon further review, info above may be incorrect... Pic below is a skin for the 392nd BG / 578th BS... I dont know bombers...

578th Squadron Code: EC
• Tail Code: W
Found this pic below....

 

[GrauGeist]

There may be some B-24s we can use found at b24.net...they have a good collection of ships from the 392ndBG, 578thBS.

I'm on Rafferty's skin (WR-P) at the moment, going along well!

 

[lesofprimus]

Great, I know theres alot of work to be done David.... Post up some screenies when u can....

 

[drgondog]

Dan, sorry to hear you're not feeling well, hope that doesn't last long!

I was trying my hand at finding details on Zimmerman's crate for the time period of September, which is turning out to be pretty difficult.

Bill, would Zimmerman have been flying Perry's rig on 11 September (as Thunderwagon), instead of Pittsburgh Smoker as his own?

Yes. I have the entire order of battle for the entire 355th FG for all ops from start to EOW. Perry was near the end of his tour and going home to be an instructor and WR-I was his from P-47s all the way through P-51B and then this P-51D. When Perry was assigned WR-I and he wasn't on the mission, someone in his flight would get the ship for the mission (like Zimmerman) that day.

When Perry CTD, his ship WR-I went to Hull, a more senior pilot than Zimmerman.

Zimmerman's WR-M, was being flown primarily by Clarence Graham, was Darling Doris until Graham went home in October and Zimmerman inherited WR-M and renamed it. By that time Zimmerman was senior enough to get a ship assigned to him (primary)

I suspect you know the senior pilots in each flight had 'ownership' of a specific a/c and thus the 'right' to name it - usually he 'owned' the left side and the real owner, the crew chief, owned the right side.

Another thing, pilots would occasionally change squadron code completely - but crew chiefs rarely. For example my father's first assigned ship was WR-O (a P51B-7 w/malcolm hood) but when the newer D-5 came he got one of the first. By that time 28 ships (25 B/C and 3 D's) were assigned to 354FS (including HQ) and WR-A was already taken so he got WR-B as number 28... and inherited a new crew chief who was promoted from the WR-S team. They stayed together for the rest of the war.

So, WR-O went to another pilot until declared WW. It was replaced by a P-51D.

Sometimes a ship would be pretty damaged. While it was in the service hanger, maybe a new P-51 comes into the 355th. It gets assigned the same squadron code (say WRB). When the old WR-B comes out of the shop it gets a new squadron code or maybe replaces another ship in one of the other squadrons.

Dad had three Jane's that were damaged, but repaired. They went from WR-B to WR-B (no bar), to YF-H, to WR-L. Two were lost with other pilots flying 'his' Mustang. One survived the war.

This is why a serial number stays the same but over time but that exact same ship gets different squadron codes as it gets damaged then returned to service.

Hope this amkes sense.

 

[drgondog]

And the final component is going to be skins for the B-24's of the 2nd Air Div, 392ndBG, 578thBS...

White rudders
Black Mid Bar
DC behind waist gunner
"N" in black bar

Gonna need 4 different versions of the -24 skin... Theres gonna be 24 of em at 22,000 feet, but close ups require only 4....

Upon further review, info above may be incorrect... Pic below is a skin for the 392nd BG / 578th BS... I dont know bombers...

578th Squadron Code: EC
• Tail Code: W
Found this pic below....

Dan - you definitely have the squadron right... I just rechecked the ships that went down - one ~ 8mi ne Geissen (42-50358 Q) and the other in Marburg area (42-50466 (unknown ship letter)).

 

[drgondog]

There may be some B-24s we can use found at b24.net...they have a good collection of ships from the 392ndBG, 578thBS.

I'm on Rafferty's skin (WR-P) at the moment, going along well!

That particular P-51B-15, as WR-A Man O War, is my favorite Mustang. Kinnard had a most unusual camo scheme..