Myths, Legends, and Propaganda

[swampyankee]

The history of WW2 is still being written, as more documents, many classified for decades, are becoming available.

One item of myth/legend/propaganda, that of the "Clean Wehrmacht" is becoming increasingly untenable. A recent book, published in the US as Soldiers: German POWs on Fighting, Killing, and Dying (Amazon product ASIN B007QPH5FK) takes advantage of about 50,000 pages of transcripts of secretly recorded conversations between German POWs. Apparently (I've not yet read the book), common soldiers of the Heer were both much more knowledgeable about much less morally concerned about both murders of civilians (usually in reprisals after partisan activities) and the Holocaust than has been portrayed by many sources.

If nothing else, this book blows the "I didn't know about the mass murders of Jews" defense to Hell and gone.

 

[MiTasol]

I think it fair to say both sides were equally guilty of this.
For many years the Australian ABC would show a ww2 film called Battle of the Bismark Sea on ANZAC day. Then someone noticed it was showing RAAF and USAAF aircrew strafing lifeboats and floats so it is not shown any more.

 

[swampyankee]

I think it fair to say both sides were equally guilty of this.
For many years the Australian ABC would show a ww2 film called Battle of the Bismark Sea on ANZAC day. Then someone noticed it was showing RAAF and USAAF aircrew strafing lifeboats and floats so it is not shown any more.

The point of my post was the Wehrmacht was not "clean," in that it was an active participant in war crimes, including the Holocaust and mass murder of civilians, specifically by ground forces. It may not have been as deeply involved as the SS, which largely existed to commit them, but it was involved.

Both sides were not equally guilty; the Western Allies never exterminated a village because somebody in the general area shot at a soldier, and by "exterminate," I mean soldiers walking or driving into a village and killing every man, woman, and child.

 

[pbehn]

Watch the movie "Casablanca"

 

[swampyankee]

Watch the movie "Casablanca"

Great movie.

 

[pbehn]

Great movie.

The whole plot is based around not being sent to a concentration camp and Hollywood released that in early 1943, everyone knew about them but what could be done about them. I don't know of any leader in history who had so many unsuccessful assassination attempts on him than Hitler had.

 

[swampyankee]

The whole plot is based around not being sent to a concentration camp and Hollywood released that in early 1943, everyone knew about them but what could be done about them.

One of the myths of WW2 is that nobody in the Wehrmacht or Germany, in general, knew about the concentration camps. There may have (and probably were) people who refused to believe there were concentration camps, but it's untenable to argue that this was a super-secret that nobody knew. The recordings of German PoWs -- who were not under interrogation -- completely destroy the myth that German soldiers didn't know.

I don't know of any leader in history who had so many unsuccessful assassination attempts on him than Hitler had.

King Hussein bin Talal (حسين بن طلال‎)of Jordan had at least fifteen that have been reported.

 

[pbehn]

One of the myths of WW2 is that nobody in the Wehrmacht or Germany, in general, knew about the concentration camps. There may have (and probably were) people who refused to believe there were concentration camps, but it's untenable to argue that this was a super-secret that nobody knew. The recordings of German PoWs -- who were not under interrogation -- completely destroy the myth that German soldiers didn't know.



King Hussein bin Talal (حسين بن طلال‎)of Jordan had at least fifteen that have been reported.

I read a book on Berlin during the war and its aftermath. When it was all over the women of Berlin had to pretend that they were the only woman not raped by a Russian soldier to their husband who also pretended that he was the only soldier not to give the Russians a reason to take revenge. People will still argue today that Bomber command only targeted military targets, they didn't always, sometimes they specifically targeted civilian populations to kill, injure and de-house them, my uncle was in Bomber Command, he knew what they were doing, I know what he was doing, it was a war.

 

[swampyankee]

My father-in-law's (who served in the Italian Army as a liaison officer between the Italian Army and the Heer) family home, near Naples, was destroyed by an Allied bombing raid. His sister gave birth in a field. He also got to dodge German troops in Rome so he didn't get dragged off to the Ardeatine Caves and murdered.

After the Italian surrender, he translated for the US occupation forces. Despite that his family was arguably more damaged by the Allies, he retained an emnity against Germany until his death, as they were the ultimate cause of all the suffering he and his family* had, as trying to survive in a war zone. (He also related that he knew several Italian PoWs who were prisoners in the US, and how they felt they were treated better than the African-American soldiers who were guarding them.)


______

* His father, who was a physician and moved between the US and Italy several times (and never went through Ellis Island -- he traveled first class, and those immigrants didn't need to stop there), and his elder brother were in the US at the time.

 

[michael rauls]

One of the myths of WW2 is that nobody in the Wehrmacht or Germany, in general, knew about the concentration camps. There may have (and probably were) people who refused to believe there were concentration camps, but it's untenable to argue that this was a super-secret that nobody knew. The recordings of German PoWs -- who were not under interrogation -- completely destroy the myth that German soldiers didn't know.



King Hussein bin Talal (حسين بن طلال‎)of Jordan had at least fifteen that have been reported.

I think from what I've read that most people in Germany we're aware of the camps to some degree. How could one not be. All those Jewish people are being taken somewhere and it's obviously not going to be good.
I think more important is was an individual or the society as a whole and if so by what percentages in favor of, ok with , or an active participant in the practice. It's difficult to put a percentage on how many people were ok with it, how many weren't, how many knew everything but refused to admit it even to themselves because what could they do, and how many were actively on favor of it etc.
Different sources I've read have given me different impressions about what those percentages probably were. Ive read/ seen a couple sources that included letters from German troops home and gotten wildly different impressions from them. I guess the maker of the documentary, book etc. is going to choose which letters for example to include and also there is the matter of what material is available to him.
I guess im trying to say that to me its self evident that most people had to know to one degree or another but that the more important question is how many were active participants, how many tried to do something( hide Jewish people, get then out of the country, assassinate Hitler etc), how many were just passive and ok with it etc.
One at least somewhat encouraging indicator is that as pbehn pointed out there was a never ending string of attempts to assassinate Hitler. Indicates that at least a substantial minority were not ok with what was going on and were willing to risk there lives to stop it. Of course the less encouraging corralary to that is that so many were ok with or active participants in what was going on.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I've never bought into a myth about this. Most Germans knew what was going on, but what were they to do? You and your family would disappear as well. So what did most do? Pretend nothing was going on. Self preservation. "I know nothing". You tell yourself something enough, it becomes the truth. That is where the "myth" comes from. Same goes for the soldiers in the Wehrmacht. You followed orders or else.

Also I don't think anyone thought there was a "clean" Wehrmacht either. It was total war, and both sides were waging it. If anyone thinks otherwise about the Axis or the Allies, they are a fool. The Germans, and more specifically the SS, as well as the Russians took it to a whole other level of course.

 

[michael rauls]

I've never bought into a myth about this. Most Germans knew what was going on, but what were they to do? You and your family would disappear as well. So what did most do? Pretend nothing was going on. Self preservation. "I know nothing". You tell yourself something enough, it becomes the truth. That is where the "myth" comes from. Same goes for the soldiers in the Wehrmacht. You followed orders or else.

Also I don't think anyone thought there was a "clean" Wehrmacht either. It was total war, and both sides were waging it. If anyone thinks otherwise about the Axis or the Allies, they are a fool. The Germans, and more specifically the SS, as well as the Russians took it to a whole other level of course.

Agreed. I think whats lost on alot of poeple is that even for those opposed to what was going on what were they to do? Running out of your home and throwing rocks at the SS( guns had been confiscated from private ownership) as they cart off your Jewish neighbors is both unlikely to be productive and also result ones own demise.
How many had an opportunity to actually do something? Very few. It's at least somewhat encouraging that so many that did have an opportunity , Staufenburg, Rhomel, etc. were willing to risk there lives to try an stop it.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Agreed. I think whats lost on alot of poeple is that even for those opposed to what was going on what were they to do? Running out of your home and throwing rocks at the SS( guns had been confiscated from private ownership) as they cart off your Jewish neighbors is both unlikely to be productive and also result ones own demise.
How many had an opportunity to actually do something? Very few. It's at least somewhat encouraging that so many that did have an opportunity , Staufenburg, Rhomel, etc. were willing to risk there lives to try an stop it.

Absolutely. There were 42 confirmed plots to assassinate Hitler between 1932 and 1944. Those are just the confirmed ones.

77,000 German citizens were executed by the Nazi's for participating in the German resistance. Although the majority were probably not active participants.

Most were small unorganized groups that used non-violent forms of protest. Read up on the White Rose if you have not for instance.

 

[Crimea_River]

I have no doubt that.most knew that people were being shipped off to camps. I struggle with the contention that the majority knew they were being exterminated.

In my country, and in the US, all citizens of Japanese decent were shipped off to camps. Did everyone know how they were being treated once they were out of the picture? It would be a leap for the average citizen to conclude that people that were shipped off to concentration camps were being killed unless there was hard evidence that it was happening. Control of the message to the masses did much to eliminate much of doubt that may have existed.

 

[michael rauls]

Absolutely. There were 42 confirmed plots to assassinate Hitler between 1932 and 1944. Those are just the confirmed ones.

77,000 German citizens were executed by the Nazi's for participating in the German resistance. Although the majority were probably not active participants.

Most were small unorganized groups that used non-violent forms of protest. Read up on the White Rose if you have not for instance.

When, a few years ago,I first read that there was a German resistance beyond just individuals hidding Jews and things like that it left me wondering why the allies didn't make use of this i.e. give the resistance some sort of support material or otherwise.
Perhaps it just wasn't practical to do so. Don't know. It also left me wondering why after 40 some odd years of reading about the 2nd world war I was just then reading about the German resistance for the first time.

 

[taly01]

Then someone noticed it was showing RAAF and USAAF aircrew strafing lifeboats and floats so it is not shown any more.

Myth in the air war , shooting pilots in parachutes etc was a Hun or Jap dirty trick, but it is was done by all sides. Even shooting pilots in the water or life rafts is not really sporting. I was surprised that the practice also appeared in Europe late in the war by trigger happy newbies.

 

[buffnut453]

...guns had been confiscated from private ownership...

Sorry but that's entirely untrue. In fact German gun laws were relaxed under the Nazis per the legal changes of 1938. The 1938 laws did prevent Jews from having any weapons but gun registration was so poor that many Jewish families owned and kept their guns

 

[michael rauls]

Sorry but that's entirely untrue. In fact German gun laws were relaxed under the Nazis per the legal changes of 1938. The 1938 laws did prevent Jews from having any weapons but gun registration was so poor that many Jewish families owned and kept their guns

Well....... That's something that ive read from multiple sources for decades( which I know doesn't nescesarily make it true) so im predisposed to believe it but I do always have an open mind about things.
I know there were a few people that kept there ownership of firearms regardless but my impression was that they were few and far between.
Regardless I don't think it's realistic to think an individual German citizen was going to do anything more than get themselves killed trying to shoot at SS troops even if they were one of those that were lucky enough to retain there firearms.

 

[swampyankee]

In the case if the rise of the Nazis, I think a much stronger case could be made that widespread gun ownership facilitated their rise than vice versa. I also think this is a side issue with absolutely no relevance to the behavior of the German Army in WWII.

 

[buffnut453]

Well....... That's something that ive read from multiple sources for decades( which I know doesn't nescesarily make it true) so im predisposed to believe it but I do always have an open mind about things.
I know there were a few people that kept there ownership of firearms regardless but my impression was that they were few and far between.

Gun control in Germany originated with the Entente Powers and the treaty of Versailles. The objective was to "demilitarize" Germany and the dragnet included weapons owned by civilians. Initially, the state did little to enact the law, indeed there was little they could do because there was no registration mechanism for firearms until 1928.

During the 1920s, the emergence of extremist paramilitary organizations caused concern within the Weimar Republic, leading to a new law in 1928 which demanded gun registration and enabled permits to be issued for a range of activities, to include buying and selling guns. The 1928 law also provided an "easy permit" mechanism sponsored by the automobile associations for any car owners who frequently had to drive in the countryside. Permits could only be issued to "... persons whose trustworthiness is not in question and who can show a need for a (gun) permit." Ironically, that precise language was exploited by the Nazis to prevent Jews and other "undesirables" from owning weapons.

After the Nazis ascended to power, new gun laws were rolled out in 1938 which drastically reduced the constraints on gun ownership:

• The 1928 law applied to all weapons but the 1938 law focused solely on handguns and exempted any long-barrel weapons from the permit requirements. Essentially, the 1938 law completely deregulated the acquisition and transfer of rifles and shotguns, and the possession of ammunition.
• Lowered the legal age for gun ownership from 21 to 18.
• Removed all gun ownership restrictions from a broad swathe of society including holders of annual hunting permits, government workers, and National Socialist German Workers' Party members (prior to the 1938 law, only officials of the central government, the states, and employees of the German Reichsbahn Railways were exempted from the gun ownership rules).

Bottom line is that gun ownership was pretty common in Germany throughout the period. At no stage were guns ever forcibly removed from the population. Thus, I think the perception that only very few people owned guns is mistaken.

Regardless I don't think it's realistic to think an individual German citizen was going to do anything more than get themselves killed trying to shoot at SS troops.

I can agree with this part of the statement. No amount of pistols or hunting rifles will deter a military force equipped with tanks, armoured cars, and air assets.