Nachtjaegers shooting down Allied nightfighters
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Erich
the old Sage
other than Welters merry band, 10 (N)./JG 300 shot down more mossies than He 219's. Flying Bf 109G-6/AS and G-14/AS. understand Welter was part of JG 300 for some time ...........before his experimentation with jet types.
All LW twin engines scored against Mossies either by forward firing weapons or in the case in most instances against Mossie NF's by the use of the rearward firing weapons - MG's.
Overall the P-61 had success against the LW types both Bf 110G-4 and Ju 88G variants, though the P-61 squadrons in the ETO usually confronted LW night bombers. Impressions yes the Mossie was more successful not sure if I would grant it best Allied NF but possibly. There were certainly many more squadrons of Mossies in the NF and NF intruder roles than the small ETO units of P-61's by the 9th AF and later supplanted by MTO units by wars end.
to check of course the LW success's over the Mossie would take weeks, maybe months to go over every score claimed by the LW and as said many LW claims for late 44-45 do not even exist.
All LW twin engines scored against Mossies either by forward firing weapons or in the case in most instances against Mossie NF's by the use of the rearward firing weapons - MG's.
Overall the P-61 had success against the LW types both Bf 110G-4 and Ju 88G variants, though the P-61 squadrons in the ETO usually confronted LW night bombers. Impressions yes the Mossie was more successful not sure if I would grant it best Allied NF but possibly. There were certainly many more squadrons of Mossies in the NF and NF intruder roles than the small ETO units of P-61's by the 9th AF and later supplanted by MTO units by wars end.
to check of course the LW success's over the Mossie would take weeks, maybe months to go over every score claimed by the LW and as said many LW claims for late 44-45 do not even exist.
Hi Paradox,
Sorry to hear of your difficulties.
I've been keeping a file of Mosquito losses for some time. Sadly, for the losses I've been able to match to claims from the various Luftwaffe units, I've not had the time to go through Michael Holm's site and attribute all claims to Luftwaffe aircraft *types*. Project for another week, perhaps.
Either way, a rough review of my data (rough as in it includes operations in the Far East, which I haven't been able systematically to exclude, project for yet another week perhaps) shows I've 350 losses, both day and night, which I can't attribute to any particular cause. These will by definition be mostly flak and accidents over enemy territory, as Luftwaffe air-to-air claims are well documented, thanks to the work of Tony Woods and others.
I also have 484 losses (day and night) for which I have a known reason for the loss. (Again, this includes Far East losses, see above). Of these, 192 are attributable to flak. A further 58 are some sort of mis-adventure resulting in a crash while on operations. There's 13 which fled to Sweden, etc.
Although as noted above I can't tell systematically, the impression I get is that in terms of air-to-air, it's pretty much neck-and-neck in terms of Mossie kills between the Fw 190 and the 262. The 219 *might* have accounted for 11 or 12 (all bomber variants) - it's hard to tell which units had the 219 at which points, and I've no data for the 219 past about November 1944. In contrast, there's about 20 or so for the 262 (including 11 from Welter's group, the top-scoring anti-Mossie *unit*), and at least 20 for the Wulf.
As said, I've not attributed types to units, and I'm assuming all the JG 26 stuff I have is 190-related, and either JG 300 or JG 301 (or both?) will be the same.
Bottom line is, you and everyone else should disabuse yourself of the idea that half of the Mossies lost went down to 219s.
Cheers,
Mark
Edit - In thinking about it, I suppose the JG 2 claims, and at least some of those from JG 5 will have been on 190s as well, so I reckon the 190 must take it.
Sorry to hear of your difficulties.
I've been keeping a file of Mosquito losses for some time. Sadly, for the losses I've been able to match to claims from the various Luftwaffe units, I've not had the time to go through Michael Holm's site and attribute all claims to Luftwaffe aircraft *types*. Project for another week, perhaps.
Either way, a rough review of my data (rough as in it includes operations in the Far East, which I haven't been able systematically to exclude, project for yet another week perhaps) shows I've 350 losses, both day and night, which I can't attribute to any particular cause. These will by definition be mostly flak and accidents over enemy territory, as Luftwaffe air-to-air claims are well documented, thanks to the work of Tony Woods and others.
I also have 484 losses (day and night) for which I have a known reason for the loss. (Again, this includes Far East losses, see above). Of these, 192 are attributable to flak. A further 58 are some sort of mis-adventure resulting in a crash while on operations. There's 13 which fled to Sweden, etc.
Although as noted above I can't tell systematically, the impression I get is that in terms of air-to-air, it's pretty much neck-and-neck in terms of Mossie kills between the Fw 190 and the 262. The 219 *might* have accounted for 11 or 12 (all bomber variants) - it's hard to tell which units had the 219 at which points, and I've no data for the 219 past about November 1944. In contrast, there's about 20 or so for the 262 (including 11 from Welter's group, the top-scoring anti-Mossie *unit*), and at least 20 for the Wulf.
As said, I've not attributed types to units, and I'm assuming all the JG 26 stuff I have is 190-related, and either JG 300 or JG 301 (or both?) will be the same.
Bottom line is, you and everyone else should disabuse yourself of the idea that half of the Mossies lost went down to 219s.
Cheers,
Mark
Edit - In thinking about it, I suppose the JG 2 claims, and at least some of those from JG 5 will have been on 190s as well, so I reckon the 190 must take it.
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Erich
the old Sage
thanks Mark for your input. Did not even consider the day opsand yes in this instacne the Fw would be ranked way up there.
all: remember what I said earlier about Welter and his claims, several of his confirms should of been given to other jet pilots.
for the He 219 although NJG 3 had some they were never operational due to different causes. NJGr 10's did fly on missions but also suffered due to broken backs. As for Mossie kills only I./NJG 1 can be attributed to these and no-one else.
one small item : a pilot in NJG 2 shot down two Beau NF's confirmed in his Ju 88G-6.
funny even my cousin Hans Baer was given credit for a Mossie NF when he was flying a Do217N................ go figure.
all: remember what I said earlier about Welter and his claims, several of his confirms should of been given to other jet pilots.
for the He 219 although NJG 3 had some they were never operational due to different causes. NJGr 10's did fly on missions but also suffered due to broken backs. As for Mossie kills only I./NJG 1 can be attributed to these and no-one else.
one small item : a pilot in NJG 2 shot down two Beau NF's confirmed in his Ju 88G-6.
funny even my cousin Hans Baer was given credit for a Mossie NF when he was flying a Do217N................ go figure.
Well,
I worked my way through Michael Holm's site with it's excellent "on-strength" pages for the various Gruppen, and the pages for the individual Staffeln. I've also done a quick split of West/Med/Asia losses for the Mossie. I already had a field in the DB for the type of sortie the Mossie was on when lost.
The results are as follows. There are 60 NF losses for which I've not been able to attribute a cause. Note that this will include home-defence fighters lost over the Channel or the North Sea. Of the losses for which there is a clear cause, flak is just in front of friendly fire as the leading cause of loss! Operational crashes come third, with debris from exploding / disintegrating Luftwaffe aircraft in fourth. There's a few in which the loss is attributed to a night fighter, with no matching claim available - one suspects friendly fire...
Bottom line is, the Ju 88 is just in front of the 110 for shooting down Mossie nightfighters. I can find no cases of an He 219 shooting down a Mossie NF.
You'll forgive me if I keep stumm on the actual numbers for a bit - naturally this is work in progress.
Cheers,
Mark
I worked my way through Michael Holm's site with it's excellent "on-strength" pages for the various Gruppen, and the pages for the individual Staffeln. I've also done a quick split of West/Med/Asia losses for the Mossie. I already had a field in the DB for the type of sortie the Mossie was on when lost.
The results are as follows. There are 60 NF losses for which I've not been able to attribute a cause. Note that this will include home-defence fighters lost over the Channel or the North Sea. Of the losses for which there is a clear cause, flak is just in front of friendly fire as the leading cause of loss! Operational crashes come third, with debris from exploding / disintegrating Luftwaffe aircraft in fourth. There's a few in which the loss is attributed to a night fighter, with no matching claim available - one suspects friendly fire...
Bottom line is, the Ju 88 is just in front of the 110 for shooting down Mossie nightfighters. I can find no cases of an He 219 shooting down a Mossie NF.
You'll forgive me if I keep stumm on the actual numbers for a bit - naturally this is work in progress.
Cheers,
Mark
Erich
the old Sage
good job Mark keep at it.
to answer your question on the bottom of the other page, no I dnot have a clue,e ven going through Michaels exhaustive site is time madness. I must admit I have not really sat down yet and really gone through specific numerations of the LW crate that were high rank killers of Mossie NF's, quite a bit easier for the Mossie bomber but that is still tedious work, as you mentioned the 60 or so unexplained through bad weather, mechanical faault to just don't know.............possibly the illusive loss to Welter's roving horde and even the Mossie shoot down of LW crates and return fire taking them out with 0 conclusion in the matter except two crashes and possible MIA to this day.
to answer your question on the bottom of the other page, no I dnot have a clue,e ven going through Michaels exhaustive site is time madness. I must admit I have not really sat down yet and really gone through specific numerations of the LW crate that were high rank killers of Mossie NF's, quite a bit easier for the Mossie bomber but that is still tedious work, as you mentioned the 60 or so unexplained through bad weather, mechanical faault to just don't know.............possibly the illusive loss to Welter's roving horde and even the Mossie shoot down of LW crates and return fire taking them out with 0 conclusion in the matter except two crashes and possible MIA to this day.
Yep, it can be hard to assign things one way or the other. For instance, one of the Friendly Fire losses was first hit by return fire from a KG 51 Me 410. I haven't given the latter the kill as the Mossie was returning in difficulty but under control when hit by local friendly AAA.
One of the Intruder losses which I've attributed to an unspecified nightfighter is one for which there's a crash report which mentions a night fighter, but for which I can't find a claim.
I stress that I've gone from lost Mosquitos backwards, as opposed to starting with LW claims then looking for a loss. I suppose at some point I'll have to flag which claims I believe die not result in a Mosquito loss, for example Bloemertz's ASM/VNE in early '43.
One of the Intruder losses which I've attributed to an unspecified nightfighter is one for which there's a crash report which mentions a night fighter, but for which I can't find a claim.
I stress that I've gone from lost Mosquitos backwards, as opposed to starting with LW claims then looking for a loss. I suppose at some point I'll have to flag which claims I believe die not result in a Mosquito loss, for example Bloemertz's ASM/VNE in early '43.
parsifal
Colonel
fantastic work guys, well done
