Night fighter rear gun: was it worth it

[buzzard]

Erich,

I agree,given its limited numbers and opportunities, the '262 was the best NF of the war. I also concur with your views on the deleterious effect that incessant modifications imposed on the Do335 (and other ac)

My preference for the Do335 over the 262 is predicated on its superior range, loiter time, and reliability...not (surprise )performance. It had sufficient performance to deal with any forseeable enemy NFs. Good enough is enough, in this case.

JL

 

[Erich]

the proposed twin seater version beyond the B-2 for late 45 into 46 was to have enclosed fuel cells to extend it's range and a more streamlined fuselage and also equipped with the latest gadgets, the radar being AI

 

[drgondog]

I agree with both of you.

My sole question about the 262 as a night fighter is that it was hard enough to get a firing solution in daylight on a B-17 (or whatever) because of the high closing speeds - so what was going to make it as 'effective' at night with low relative visibility and depth perception?

In the comparisons between the two, given enough time to solve the technical and tactical issues I lean to the 2 seater Me 262.

The converse to this challenge is what platform did the Allies have to address jet a/c raiders or recon at night - The A3D didn't fly until 1948. The Korean War platforms of the F-94 and F-89 weren't in service until middle of Korean War and the Meteor was a little clumsy as a night Fighter even though it did have AI radar.

Jet aircraft made the fine P-61 obsolete for the newer threats and the F-82 just wasn't fast enough to defeat a jet bomber at high altitude either.

The Me 262 seemed scalable into perhaps even the 1950's.. but the Do 335 would have been in same class as F-82..

Erich - on the Do 335, I know that the plant west of Munich was one of the targets of the 1st Task Force on April 24, 1944. The strike assessment was 'excellent' results but I also know some of the facilities were underground. Have you seen any historical reference indicating any setback due to USAAF bombing?

 

[Erich]

Bill total rejection of the design by the LW in part for the Do 335. It was to be a bomber Pulk Zerstörer that was why it was built, not for night fighting nor for engaging Allied escort fighters such as the P-51, it couldn't simple and fair. yes jigs were destroyed and the pant broken up with some of it being developed underground like the furtherance of the LW jet and rocket programs.

ideally Welter felt that Mossie hunting with the Me 262A-1a was not going to win the war, long running battles with 4-engines was the key one reason and he was not wild about it, he accepted radar operators into the unit with new pilots from other gruppen who had flown with more than one crewman, Welters original band came from 109/Fw 190 pilots cadre like himself in November/December of 44, the single seater could catch the Mossie-all types with ease, no radar guidance was needed as all pilots from the blind flying Schulen and expertize in other units in the Wilde Sau/hell-Nacht tactics

 

[Udet]

Bill and Soren, thanks!

Now freebird...

Udet I'm not quite sure what your disagreement is here. He is not saying that the Germans had poor night-fighters, he is saying that the main cause of casualties was the poor equipment tactics of the RAF, which the Germans took full advantage of, given the oppertunity. I don't think that by 1944 you can consider the performance of the venerable Me110 or the Ju88 to be "outstanding" or "superlative", but these older designs {with updated radar equipment}were very effectivly used by the Luftwaffe.

He just did point out the fact it was not the quality of German night-fighters that caused the high losses of RAF bombers...he put the blame of Bomber Command´s horrific losses mainly on British doctrine and the decisions made by "Civilian Bomber" Harris. I say no to that opinion; whatever the doctrine of the enemy might have been, the quality of the German night ships allowed them to efficiently counter the enemy´s strategy and effectively destroy huge quantities of British bombers. That, in my view, and also most people´s view, should be regarded as excellent quality.

My only point of contention though for comparing the Mossie against the main German night-fighters was the one referring to airframes not originally conceived for night-fighting that were converted and adapted to become successful nocturne ships.


Mr. Buzzard...

My argument concerns the value of defensive armament in accomplishing a specific task; the efficient shooting down of ac at night. IMO, it has a negative value, in that it detracts from the more useful quality of high performance. You can argue that the converted bombers with their multi-man crews were effective at shooting down the poorly armed bombers, but when it came to NF vs NF combat, the lighter, simpler Mosquito was the clear victor. Performance is worth more than defensive gunners.

Their primary mission was to intercept and destroy bombers, and not to deal with some plane that during an important period of time was too bloody rare to be encountered...tell me, how many Mosquitoes served in the night-fighting role during the entire war? Around 1,300?


Erich says that the RAF NFs couldn't be everywhere, and he's right. Right, because the religious fanatic masquerading as a military leader (Harris), had far more concern for his precious bomber dogma than he did for the men serving under him. The RAF had plenty of experienced combat pilots with no vital combat role during the worst slaughter of the bombers. They also had plenty of Mosquitos that could have been more effectively used as NFs than as bombers and Pathfinders. Other ac could have carried out those missions quite effectively. Perhaps some of the Lancs that might have survived with effective fighter support...

That the British were sometimes very foolish at managing their resources is not the fault of the Nachtjagdwaffe. I am sure Germany could have fared way better than it did against both RAF and USAF together; they had the human and material resources to achieve it but they simply didn´t do what was necessary. The allies took full advantage of it, very simple. Exactly what the Germans did when dealing with RAF bombers.

 

[buzzard]

drgondog,

As the attack method of nightfighter is generally from astern, usually at a slow closure rate, the '262 Nachtdjag pilot would have an easier time lining up on his target than during high speed daylight attacks on heavily armed bomber formations. That said, the poor throttle response and inability of the 262 to reduce speed quickly, were other factors that lead me to believe that the Do 335 would have been more useful than the Me 262 as a NF. Add in the 262's utter dependence on long, hard-surface runways (constant targets of bombing attacks) and the vulnerability of the 262 to intruder attack during take-offs and landings, and the functional superiority of the Do335 as the right plane for the situation becomes more and more evident.

Given the circumstances that prevailed in the last year of war, the Me-262 would have been hard-pressed to benefit from its performance edge over the Pfeil. High speed is no help if you can't get off the ground.

Your comments on the post-war scenario are interesting, but during the war, the LW had little reason to fear a sudden onslaught of RAF jet bombers...

JL

 

[drgondog]

drgondog,

As the attack method of nightfighter is generally from astern, usually at a slow closure rate, the '262 Nachtdjag pilot would have an easier time lining up on his target than during high speed daylight attacks on heavily armed bomber formations. That said, the poor throttle response and inability of the 262 to reduce speed quickly, were other factors that lead me to believe that the Do 335 would have been more useful than the Me 262 as a NF. Add in the 262's utter dependence on long, hard-surface runways (constant targets of bombing attacks) and the vulnerability of the 262 to intruder attack during take-offs and landings, and the functional superiority of the Do335 as the right plane for the situation becomes more and more evident.

Given the circumstances that prevailed in the last year of war, the Me-262 would have been hard-pressed to benefit from its performance edge over the Pfeil. High speed is no help if you can't get off the ground.

Your comments on the post-war scenario are interesting, but during the war, the LW had little reason to fear a sudden onslaught of RAF jet bombers...

JL

I don't disagree your points. My comments about the 262 as my personal choice were for all the reasons I mentioned - particulalry scaling forward as an advanced weapon system for then and the future.

I also know that the runways were quite frequently the Autobahn, particularly around the Munich - Augsburg area. We strafed it a lot but bombed it hardly at all. The issue for 262 ops in that scenario is maintenance, spare parts and fuel

I also have no problem contemplating a 262 throttling back to 350kts once it acquired a Lancaster and coasting into the target for a more luxurious target solution - where that same scenario gets him blown out of the sky in daylight by escort fighters.

The Do 335 certainly had potential but it also was one of the 'what if' aircraft that plagued the LW at the end of the war - it never translated to reality of note in any role. Even the lovely Ta 152, the He 162, etc were worthless in the context of making a difference?

but back to the purpose of the thread. I agree with all of you that the most effective tools for the best NF were performance, target acquisition and forward firepower. Tail warning radar was a better 'protector' at night than a rear gunner in 1944-1945

 

[buzzard]

Mr Udet,

While I appreciate the honorific you bestow upon me ( and I happily return the honor), I am mystified by your apparent resentment of my refusal to accept that the LW bomber-derived NFs were 'excellent'. As I've already stated a couple times, I do believe that they were effective. 'Effective' is not however, synonymous with 'excellent'...as the fortunately rare 'bloody' Mosquito made lethally apparent to the LW NFs that had the rare misfortune to encounter them.

JL

 

[Kruska]

ah but the 262 was the best nf of the war, proved already through the small band of Kmdo Welter. do not let the staffel size of single seaters fool you.

Hello Erich

According to whom? Welter, Galland and Co.?

There was nothing a Fw190D-9, He-219 or a 109K (talking about "really existing and effective a/c) couldn't have done during a Night bomber interception mission as successful as a 262, except that their engines would not have had a statistical fall or burnout after 10-20 hours or more likely during a mission or whilst takeoff.

(A relative of mine (piloting a Fw190D-9) saw dozens of these jets burning and crashing whilst takeoff – mostly manned by (Milchbubis) – Kids – and former Bomber pilots, and he was just shaking his head until 1994 about the "blindness" and "hoping for the Endsieg" (hoping for the final victory) people who even after the war continued in fantasizing in Books and TV interviews about "if" and "when".
According to my relative, even the modern FW-190D-9's were not all equipped with the modern (sorry can't recall the exact term) Revi's, instead the "uppers" dreamed about the 262, 163, etc. etc.

The 262 was indeed revolutionary, but it wasn't developed enough (not to mention the usage of inferior materials – not only the engines) and not capable to perform as a replacement for any modern LW prop in 1945 at all. I really don't know how long people will clinch to this Wunderwaffen Mythology. (Probably because the Title sells well) Former pilots like Galland, or alikes somehow just can't seem to accept the fact of having lost the war for certain solid reasons, despite some of those pilots personal efforts or sacrifices and therefore escape - retreat into this "if" and "when" and "could".

IMO I regard the statement that a 262 was the best Nightfighter as just a "Frommer Wunsch" (wishful thinking?), maybe based on one, or a handful of persons opinion such as other pilots forwarded that the He219 was super "fantastic" and could have won the Nightwar "if".
Imagine the British would have stopped or neglected their Spit/Typhoon and Mossies, or the US their P-51/P47's starting 1943 in favor of the Meteor and Airacomet. From mid 1944 to May 45 they would have had non efficient Meteors and Airacomets plus P-40's and Hurricanes facing Fw190D-9's and 109K's. But the British could write in Books (in German Language) – the twenty Meteors in May 45 were superior to any LW prop "if".

Erich,

Regarding the; (rear gunner forward to the eastern Front): I do not believe (You could possibly know more about this then me) that the rear gunner in night hunter bombers had a second job as radar operator. To my knowledge he was just an additional asset to the existing crew.
As for my uncle on the eastern front commanding H111's there was indeed a "heavy struggle" on behalf of him and other members of the "Flying Luftwaffe" to come up with all sorts of excuses to prevent the gunners (not just ground crews) from being drafted into LW infantry. Despite knowing about the ineffectiveness of their gunners they still forwarded it as an "absolute must" in order to prevent their buddies from ending up as additional HG infantry cannon fodder.

Regards
Kruska

 

[kool kitty89]

Actually if development had gone better (mainly the Rover issue, slowing jet development by 2 years) the Meteor could have been an effective weapon well before the war's end, and the Vampire could have entered service much earlier than it did if a higher priorety had been given.

The problems with the P-59's development were numerous, and for several reasons which I won't go into. And even if say the P-80 (or even a hypothetical better developed Airacomet) could have been available in time it still lacked the range to be a propper escort in these circumstances (not to get into the XP-83), so that's a bit different. While the Meteor (and Vampire) had range equal or better than the contemporaries mentioned.

Now in any case it wouldn't have been wise to simply cut off the existing british designs, but a higher priorety in these circumstances could have allowed the jets to replace them if things had gone right. (say equivelent improvements to the airframe to equate to the Meteor Mk.4, with ~2,450 lbf engines, Derwent IV, or W.2/700 for example)

But this is way off topic of the thread, so I don't want to get into any more of this here.

 

[Kruska]

Hello kool kitty89,

Mostly correct what you say (I am not so sure about the "reliable" British engines that "might" "if" have "could") , but please don't forget; Germany simply did not have the resources to cope with both.

So IMO, either "dream a/c" or solid props

Regards
Kruska

 

[Soren]

Kruska,

The Me-262 achieved a roughly 10 to 1 kill ratio in the air, not exactly the sign of an unfinished design.

The Me-262 isn't like all of those wonderweapons Hitler late in the war fantasized about,, the Me-262 was developed long before and was a solid and thuroughly thought through design.

It was infact Hitler who made sure that the Me-262 didn't reach its full potential, delaying the project on several occasions, and then when it finally was accepted into service Hitler assigned it the role of fighter bomber! A none other than idiotic decision. The Me-262 was designed as a pure fighter, not a fighter bomber, as the accelleration in dives was simply too great for it to ever be effective in that role. But that doesn't alter the fact that the Me-262 was an excellent design well ahead of its time.

As a fighter the Me-262 was by far the best of WW2, clearly outmatching ANY other fighter in the world by a huge margin, featuring excellent high speed maneuverability, climb rate speed. The Me-262's only weakness was its engines, which proved unreliable when operated by rookies because of their manufacture with substitute materials, the heat resistant materials needed no longer being in supply. Again this was Hitler's fault as he had delayed the design for too long and spend the needed materials on other less important designs.

 

[buzzard]

Drgondog,

Kruska's post is right on the money. It's easy to get hypnotized by the performance numbers of the 262, but other, less glamorous factors, should be given equal weight when assessing the actual utility of an AC. Personally, I've always felt that the 262 was vastly over-hyped. Its real significance is as a portent of the future.

I'm well aware that the Do335 is another 'what if' (Just as I am well aware that, with the sole exception of the P-61, none of the WWII NFs (He 219 included) were expressly designed for the NF role...contrary to the assertions of some here).

My example of the Do335 as a counter to the Mosquito is based on the self-evident fact that the LW had nothing in service capable of matching the Mossie's performance. The Ju-388 was closest perhaps, but the jets and the Ta 154 were plagued with such a host of persistant technical challenges as to render their timely, wide-scale use implausible. The Uhu was inherently flawed, and as for fiascos like the Me 210/410...The Do 335,OTOH, was a very straight-forward design, other than it's unusual propulsion system (and that seemed to be surprisingly trouble-free), with good flying qualities and a conventional construction. Almost a no-brainer, except to the RLM...

Despite the emphasis on the RAF heavies, the Mosquito, in all its variants, probably caused more grief, on a per plane basis, than even the Lancaster. And I'm still sure that the Nachtdjag would have gladly traded in their vaunted Ju-88Gs for something that could hand the hated Moskito (bomber or NF) its a** on a plate. But, I guess we'll never know...

JL

 

[Erich]

Kruska I think you need to do a very serious search on this site and about my postings since I joined. do I know more than you about the night air war, I will leave that up to the forum members here, I had a cousin who was a night fighter ace in NJG 3 and 5, I had a cousin serve in II./JG 301, 4 other cousins were landsers in the Heer on the Ost front. I have researched and studied the Me 262 in the night skies since the early 1960's and am preparing a book (s) on the bird _ Moskito-jadg über Deutschland with many first hand accounts/interviews done over the years. I have literally interviewed hundreds of pilots and former crewmembers of the day/night fighter forces.

your assumption is quite incorrect about the second member as my statements are from the LW NF crews themselves and is certainly written down and will be in quite immensive details in Dr. Boitens massive tome this fall...............and one particular instance is the crew of Stab IV./NJG 6 with Martin Becker at the controls, his regular Bordfünker Karl Johanssen operated the Naxos while the (4th) crewmember operated their FuG 220d set. it is all written down for me in my interview of several pages with Karl some years back and will be printed in English in boitens huge work of the March 45 incident where they claimed 9 RAF bombers.

After Burg being vaporized, Komando Welter moved to grass fields next to the Autobahn to fly off of, so yes the 262's both single and twin seaters flew off concrete as well as grass. In the last weeks of April and into may 45 the unit single seaters took on the RAF Spitfires and Tempests in day time sorties, being quite successful. this is a closed matter with privacy as I will continue to lett all of you drool over this as nothing of this sort has ever been covered in any written book.............but it will be.

So Kruska, Buzzard and others now you know a small inkling about me. I have researched especially the night air war as one of my specialties for a great many eyars, my interviews started with many of the big boy day fighter aces while my uncle a full bird colonel flew gliders with Galland, Krup, Hartmann, Rall and others, to Hajo Hermann and others of the Nachtjagd. Because of my association through a cousin in JG 301 have been in personal contact with several former pilots, Roman that goes by Seesul here has helped. Bill aka Drgondog knows of what I speak and am not full of lying B.S., like several of you may think................. besides Kruska your comments on single engines doing the same job the 262 can do will also be covered as we really portray NJG 11 and NJGr 10 like no-one has attempted to do, realizing that yes two German authors are trying to put together a book on NJGr 10 and having difficulty in doing so.

At present I am researching and helping other authors with about 9 books ~

hoping this clarifies the air and keeps it clean so this does not become one of the threads of " I know more than you do or I don't believe you types" since you do not or have not the infos I have in my data base nor I of yours. I do respect the opinions on this thread but ........ there is such scant infos on the jet night air battles, nothing really has been written -- - ---- yet
last but not least this has gone back to one of the evils "best type of a/c thread again", lets get back to the origins of the thread or we should close this one

 

[buzzard]

Erich,

I readily concede that you (and many others here) know much more about the Nachtdjag than myself. And if anything I've written leads you to believe that I think you're full of BS, trust me, that was certainly not my intent.

My primary focus of interest in WWII aviation is the personal experiences of the men who were there. While I have a reasonable amount of knowledge of the technical aspects of the subject, I make no pretense to possessing the exhaustive knowledge that you and many others here have. That said, the validity of an assertion is not a priori dependent on the authority of the person making it... Furthermore, given the intrinsically speculative nature of many of these discussions, esp. the 'If only...' sort, any practical resolution as to who is 'right' is impossible. But hey, those are the interesting discussions, not the ones that can be resolved by appealing to specs and stats.

In any case, I'm just here to learn and have some fun. And I see little point in getting emotional over an event that ended more than 60yrs ago. If anything I write seems derogatory, please point it out to me and I will happily make amends.

I look forward to future discussions with you (and everyone else)

JL

 

[Erich]

again I point out this, not talking of whom or what is best as it really is pointless, but overall the tactics, rear gun defenses, secondary crewmen in Ju 88G's operating radar/radio tech devices, rear gunner, on it goes, you will have to please refer to the Nachtjagd War Diaries volume 1 and 2 coming out both in the fall of this year, second volume will cover in some form of state what I have already mentioned from 43-till wars end, plenty of very interesting and useful material(s) that has taken well over 25 years of research and first hand knowledges to acquire ....

Buzzard I needed to clear the air for those that do not know me nor my background, I was questioned and felt a response was given

back to the Do 335 there is no doubt had missions been allowed for under it's belt that in time it could of been a very deadly a/c, but so again had the He 219A been allowed for the rest of NJG 1, isn't it interesting that it only fielded in I./NJG 1 operationally ? and only a handful to II./NJG 1 primarily for testing purposes, though this is also the case for the proven Ju 88G-6 in III./NJG 1 when Schnaufer went over to command Stab./NJG 4 he was quite bothered by the conflict of changing from his Bf 110G-4 to the more efficient Ju 88G-6

 

[Kruska]

Kruska,

The Me-262 achieved a roughly 10 to 1 kill ratio in the air, not exactly the sign of an unfinished design.

The Me-262 isn't like all of those wonderweapons Hitler late in the war fantasized about,, the Me-262 was developed long before and was a solid and thuroughly thought through design.

Hello Soren,

Yes 10 to 1 in the air maybe could be right, maybe 7:1 even though as I mentioned in another post, I do have certain reasons not to base my assumptions too much on kill statistics.

On the other hand if one looses 7:1 on the ground due to engine malfunction and crash starts, what weight does the 10:1 in the air really have? (For 1 a/c to come up 7 were crashed, engines didn't even start or had to be switched off, or burned out on the ground). An estimate given to me by my relative who was based at 262 units with his Fw prop.

Hartmann shot down 354 a/c right? He crashed 4 times? So his Bf109 kill ratio in the air would be 88.5 to 1. Marseille was shot down 2 times? So his Bf109 kill ratio in the air would be 77:1

So I am just trying to point out that the 10:1 or whatever was primarily due to the pilot's skill background and not in regards to the a/c.

Of course I do notice your Signature Picture , but sorry to say, the 262 IMO was not a developed a/c with any regards to operational or reliable status, despite Galland's "wenn Engel schieben" (when angels push).

It had its "magnificent" data mainly on paper and proofed to most pilots to be a very unreliable and difficult a/c. Which does not exclude the fact, that some LW pilots (the majority were very experienced pilots) had no flight problems and even managed to score several kills (which they would also have managed to achieve in a Fw190D-9) and is in reference to the 262's impressive armament not much of a surprise.

And before Erich get's mad about us diverting the rear gunner thread we might have to move our say to somewere else

Regards
Kruska

 

[Erich]

think it time to close this thread, and no I am not getting angry ........should I ??

Kruska if you would like to please possibly compare your thoughts or should say your uncles thoughts re: the Dora 9, 11, 13 vs the Me 262 in a new thread......please do ........still very interested in what outfit your uncle flew in as you mentioned he flew off jet bases

v/r E ~

 

[parsifal]

Erich

I have only ever treated your posts with the utmost respect. Just because I dont always agree with what you are saying, does not mean that I dont listen to your great wisdom on this subject. Most of the time, you have proven yourself to be right. That doesnt mean that us lesser beings should not put our views forward. Or would you prefer us to just sit and listen whilst you lecture???

Now, back on topic (or at least closer to topic)

one reason why the Mosquitoes were unable to turn things completely around is that there were so few of them operating in the NF role. I have read that at the height of the Battle For Germany, mid 1944, there were only 132 of them attached to Bomber Command, operating in the NF role

 

[pbfoot]

Erich



one reason why the Mosquitoes were unable to turn things completely around is that there were so few of them operating in the NF role. I have read that at the height of the Battle For Germany, mid 1944, there were only 132 of them attached to Bomber Command, operating in the NF role

What the hell were the intruders doing just because they aren't attached to the hodge podge that was a bomber stream would indicate good sense as the would more then likely have been assumed to be the foe