night of 7./8. July 44

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by Erich, Sep 14, 2008.

  1. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    doing some research now on I./JG 301 flying the Bf 109G-6 and am finding that the Gruppe had many claims this eve, including RAF 5 B-26's.

    big question for the experten on RAF equipment, was the Marauder flown at night and on this evening could they have been B-25's instead or .......... ?
    obviously the heightened excitement of engaging the foe at night was tense, the ID could just be plain wrong as it happened over and over again.

    thanks all

    E ~
     
  2. mhuxt

    mhuxt Active Member

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    Hi Erich:

    So far as I know, the RAF didn't use Marauders in the ETO, let alone at night.

    Brief google-fu:

    "'The RAF received 123 B-26C-30-MOs under the designation Marauder II. Serials were FB400 through FB522. 100 of them (FB418 through FB517) were delivered to the South African Air Force, and formed the initial equipment of Nos 12, 21, 24, 25, and 30 Squadrons. As part of the Desert Air Force, they supported the Allied force in the invasion of Italy.'
    Marauder II for RAF

    'The RAF designation for 123 aircraft of the B-26C, delivered under the Lend-Lease Act.'
    WW2 Warbirds: the Martin B-26 Marauder - Frans Bonn

    'The RAF used the B-26 Marauder exclusively in the Mediterranean theater, using none in the European theater except the first three, (FK109-FK111). The original RAF 52 B-26s were Marauder l’s (serials FK109-FK160). By the end of 1943, 45 of these had arrived in Cairo ferried by No. 45 Group RAFFC, 113 Wing. 19 B-26A- l’s (FK362-FK379) were delivered as Marauder IA’s. By late summer 1944 Marauder III’s were being delivered. 100 were B-26F-2’s (HD402-HD501). 75 were B26G-1 I’s (1-11) 602-1-113676). 75 were B-26G-2 I’s (HD 677-HD 751). The 521 ordered by the RAF were built to
    British specifications.'
    http://www.b-26marauderarchive.org/NL/Thunder/V10/V10N1.pdf"

    I had a look in the Shores and Thomas volumes on 2nd TAF - they say it was an "extremely busy night." However, a single Boston from 88 Sqn was lost, and a Wellington was shot up by a 190 but returned.

    The aircraft you are after are evidently 9th Air Force B-26s, of which "a considerable number" were lost.

    So, not an issue with target ID apparently.

    Cheers,

    Mark


    EDIT - To judge by the MACRs, it was the 322nd BG which got hammered. There's 9 MACRs listed for them on July 8. 451st BS, 452nd BS from what I've seen thus far.
     
  3. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    Don't know if this helps...

    from RAF History - Bomber Command 60th Anniversary

    7/8 July 1944
    208 Lancasters and 13 Mosquitos, mainly from No 5 Group but with some Pathfinder aircraft, attacked a flying-bomb storage dump in a group of tunnels (formerly used for growing mushrooms) at St Leu d'Esserent. The bombing was accurately directed on to the mouths of the tunnels and on to the approach roads, thus blocking access to the flying bombs stored there. German night fighters intercepted the bombing force and 29 Lancasters and 2 Mosquitos were lost, 14.0 per cent of the force. No 106 Squadron, from Metheringham, lost 5 of its 16 Lancasters on the raid and No 630 Squadron, from East Kirkby, lost its commanding officer, Wing Commander WI Deas, who was flying his 69th operation. Wing Commander Deas was killed and is buried in a small cemetery at Omerville, north-west of Versailles.

    123 Lancasters and 5 Mosquitos of Nos 1 and 8 Groups carried out an accurate raid on the railway yards at Vaires without the loss of any aircraft.

    106 aircraft of Nos 1, 3, 5 and 9No 3 Groups on a diversionary sweep almost to the coast of Holland, 7 Mosquitos of No 5 Group dropping 'spoof' markers in support of the St Leu d'Esserent raid, 32 Mosquitos to Berlin and 9 to Scholven/Buer, 48 aircraft on RCM sorties or Resistance operations (no breakdown available), 83 Mosquito patrols. 2 Mosquitos were lost from the Berlin raid and 1 aircraft (type not recorded) was lost from a Resistance flight.

    Total effort for the night: 634 sorties, 34 aircraft (5.3 per cent) lost.


    could the misident have been Mosquitoes?

    and for US

    from http://paul.rutgers.edu/~mcgrew/wwii/usaf/Jul.44

    TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 100+ A-20s and B-26s bomb rail bridge near Tours, and targets of opportunity in the Lisieux and
    Beuzeville areas; 500+ fighters fly escort and area cover, carry out armed
    reconnaissance of communication and troop activity, and bomb railroads,
    rolling stock, marshalling yards, ammunition dumps, and bridges in frontline
    areas and wide areas of W France;
     
  4. mhuxt

    mhuxt Active Member

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    Hi Again Erich:

    Lots of info here:

    BK200130.htm

    July

    4 - Doc Morton Cundiff killed on trip to Ireland.

    8 - Fatal night mission. Squadron lost four top crews headed by Major Simler C.O. The list of crew members included: 1. Major George Simler, Capt. Harold Mecke, Lts. Charles Blight and Edward Moser, Sgts. George Hill, Robert Tippett and James Winstead. 2. Lts. Carson Gallien, Robert Schoonmaker and Roy Robertson, Sgts. Clair Wiseman, Harry Marson, Glendon Jenkins and Charles Snyder. 3. Lts. Claude Jones, Milfred Allen and Robert Silberman, Sgts. George Moon, Raymond Close and Jack Tolbert. 4. Lts. James Lemmond, Richard Colvin and Raymond Noeth, Sgts. Julius Toth, Robert Blackstone and Harold Vance. (The following men were later found to have been killed: Lts. Robertson, Jones, Allen, Silberman, Lemmond, Colvin, and Noeth, Sgts. Hill, Tippett, Winstead, Jenkins, Moon, Close, Tolbert, Toth, Blackstone, and Vance. The following men became prisoners of war: Lt. Gallien, Sgts. Wiseman, Marson, and Snyder. The following men later returned as evadees: Major Simler, Capt. Mecke, Lts. Blight, Moser, and Schoonmaker.)

    Target given (same site) as: Chateau de Ribeaucourt

    Simler's escape story here: BK200118.htm He says they were hit by Fw 190s "soon after crossing the French coast".

    I wonder how long that would have taken in pre-Internet days?

    Edit - This thread:

    Maj. George Simler of 322ndBG / 451stBS - July 8, 1944

    says Simler and one other were sheltered by the resistance close to Doullens:

    "I am looking for informations concerning the loss of a B-26 Marauder, Maj. George Simler´s crew, in the night of July 8, 1944 close to Doullens, France. Documents like MACR, escape report etc...
    I seek these informations for the family of Mr. Grodski, the man who hid the Maj. George Simler and Lt. Edward Moser.
    Thank you for your assistance.
    Greetings from France,
    Frederic Henoff. "
     
  5. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    thanks to both of you, interesting what develops in a matter os some hours through research, I have to go back now to my JG 301 findings as another notable source gives the unit over 25 kills confirmed...........well back at it.

    yes had found yesterday between postings the 9th Af sent out the Marauders on a silly evening mission and they lit up the sky in doing so and the LW NF's came in droves and sucked on them like bad Mosquitos. this pretty much ended the ETO eve missions for the B-26 units/

    the Lw lost some :

    7 twin-engine NF's and 2 Bf 19G-6's from I./JG 301 in action with B-26's.
     
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