November 26 1944.........update

[Erich]

Bill most probably the 109's/Fw's of JG 1 escorted .....maybe.........JG 6's 109's ? what is interesting in JG 1 and JG 6 claims is the B-24's which is crock. Prien even says they are engaged by hordes of P-51's and then JG 1 engages B-17's in the area of Wittenberge, then over to the Nahe River by Braunschweig. Then JG 1 Fw's engaged with P-51s by Ulzen to Salzwedel. and onward to Gardelegen, and to the north of Magdeburg. ther does seem to appear some action with Fw's of II./JG 1 near Stendal and Peine where a couple of JG 301 Fw's were shot down and lost as well. Here is the kicker Bill 3 B-17's are credited to JG 1 overall. Hptm Staiger 1, Leutnant Heckmann 1, and Ihlefeld 1 giving him his 123 victory. So what is this baloney about knocking down B-24's in the listing ? so mone should of done a thorough double check on their text

Stab JG 1 1 4-motor
I./JG 1 0
III./JG 1 2 B-24's (nope)

III./JG 6 2 B-24 (nope)

I./JG 26 1 P-51
III./JG 26 4 B-24 (absolute crock), 4 Spitfires

I./JG 27 1 P-51
II./JG 27 1 P-51, 1 P-47
III./JG 27 1 P-51
IV./JG 27 2 B-17, 4 P-51, 1 P-47

IV./JG 54 1 B-17, 6 B-17HSS

Stab JG 301 1 B-17 (nope)
I./JG 301 5 B-24, 1 P-51
II./JG 301 2 B-17 (nope)
III./JG 301 6 B-24

well we know it is fact that all of JG 301 shot down 21 B-24's this is confirmed, as to the P-51 not sure if Bert's 339th Stang is included in this ?

JG 106 0

the claims listing and brief text translated is from the JG 1 and JG 11 book By Dr. Jochen Prien

I am still trying to find exact timing of this crazy mission with the Lw attacks.

yes and a plot-situation map would be wonderful if we could somehow do this, we can try and figure direction of both sides from beginning to the end with the LW banking away to the deck and dissolving away.

 

[drgondog]

Bill most probably the 109's/Fw's of JG 1 escorted .....maybe.........JG 6's 109's ? what is interesting in JG 1 and JG 6 claims is the B-24's which is crock.

I totally agree with you. ONLY the B-24s around Hannover were lost directly in air to air combat, with one (the 16th) 491st Lib abandoned over Belgium. There is NO evidence that JG1 got through to any of them.

Prien even says they are engaged by hordes of P-51's and then JG 1 engages B-17's in the area of Wittenberge, then over to the Nahe River by Braunschweig. Then JG 1 Fw's engaged with P-51s by Ulzen to Salzwedel. and onward to Gardelegen, and to the north of Magdeburg. ther does seem to appear some action with Fw's of II./JG 1 near Stendal and Peine where a couple of JG 301 Fw's were shot down and lost as well. Here is the kicker Bill 3 B-17's are credited to JG 1 overall. Hptm Staiger 1, Leutnant Heckmann 1, and Ihlefeld 1 giving him his 123 victory. So what is this baloney about knocking down B-24's in the listing ? so mone should of done a thorough double check on their text

Do you have the Woods/Butler list? If not, I'll send to you. Having said this I have always been as amused by LW overclaims to actual losses as substantiated with 'actual film catalogue numbers"

Stab JG 1 1 4-motor
I./JG 1 0
III./JG 1 2 B-24's (nope)

III./JG 6 2 B-24 (nope)

I./JG 26 1 P-51 (This one I believe is the 364th FG Mustang lost inbound
III./JG 26 4 B-24 (absolute crock), 4 Spitfires

I./JG 27 1 P-51
II./JG 27 1 P-51, 1 P-47
III./JG 27 1 P-51
IV./JG 27 2 B-17, 4 P-51, 1 P-47

None of the air losses for 51s - other than Gruenlo for the 364th, was anywhere other than Hannover - I have no evidence that JG27 was anywhere near Hannover on 26 November

IV./JG 54 1 B-17, 6 B-17HSS

Stab JG 301 1 B-17 (nope)
I./JG 301 5 B-24, 1 P-51
II./JG 301 2 B-17 (nope)
III./JG 301 6 B-24

well we know it is fact that all of JG 301 shot down 21 B-24's this is confirmed, as to the P-51 not sure if Bert's 339th Stang is included in this ?

IIf some LW pilot did not claim him, then the results are even more grim for the battle as far as ratios are concerned. I only include him as an air loss but not necessarily a LW claim/credit

JG 106 0

the claims listing and brief text translated is from the JG 1 and JG 11 book By Dr. Jochen Prien

I am still trying to find exact timing of this crazy mission with the Lw attacks.

yes and a plot-situation map would be wonderful if we could somehow do this, we can try and figure direction of both sides from beginning to the end with the LW banking away to the deck and dissolving away.

What I gave you is pretty darn close for the 389th/445/491 2CW force of B-24s attacking Misburg. No other B-24s were as far east as Dummer lake - all going to Bielefeld and Osnabruck. The IP for the B-24s for that task was ~ Lingen to nw of Osnabruck.

Now - I went through many of the Macrs' and have attached a very important report - de-briefing which is the best look at the loss timing and sequence for the 491st BG, starting just northeast of Misburg. see below attachment for the losses in quantity and time.

Additionally, the flak loss 389th bomber - Macr 11208 - puts a precise location and time for the lead group. I don't know whether 566BS was leading or in back of the bus in the lead group but only a minute or so would separate the lead/back. It was 1230-1237 and crashed 11 km northeast of Misburg.

The lead group of the tariling box (445th) lost a ship according to the post war debriefing at ~1230-1240 ~ 3 minutes from the target.

A post war questionnaire had one of the 491st B-24s bombing at 1239 and going down at 1240 about 6 miles sw of the target.

I apologize in advance but didn't have time to try to downsize it and felt you would like this one asap..

 

[Erich]

Bill
as far as I can remember the 491st bg rep told me his bg was in the traling position behind the 445th and then leading the 398.

as for Berts demise am not sure there are at least 6 Fw's that fell in the surrounding hills along with him S and west of the target.

am going by memory for nearly all my responses in this thread my data file is now over 6 inchs thick just on this one crazy mission.

yes have Woods silly listing the Jg 301 pilots listed are almost every pilot in the Geschwader but out of those 60 claims it was incredibly downsized right after the action and nearly corresponds with the actual B-24 losses though the claims of 5 B-17's should of read B-24's. I feel no doubt that even in the day operational skies JG 301 was so hard pressed that pilots glued to their sights fired and flew off to escape without even 100 % confirming their claims.

I include JG 27 on the date only as this is what is recorded for all of Nov. 26, 44 actions and as mentioned even honorable German authors with what limited details they have about this mission are incorrect in their thinking. Will say bill that you and I even on this board not counting our privates to one another have covered this days actions probably more than anyone living on the planet

E ` and I will check out your report soon, thanks friend and I still feel that JG 1 was flying off to the north of the area we are concerned with

 

[drgondog]

Bill most probably the 109's/Fw's of JG 1 escorted .....maybe.........JG 6's 109's ? what is interesting in JG 1 and JG 6 claims is the B-24's which is crock. Prien even says they are engaged by hordes of P-51's and then JG 1 engages B-17's in the area of Wittenberge, then over to the Nahe River by Braunschweig. Then JG 1 Fw's engaged with P-51s by Ulzen to Salzwedel. and onward to Gardelegen, and to the north of Magdeburg. ther does seem to appear some action with Fw's of II./JG 1 near Stendal and Peine where a couple of JG 301 Fw's were shot down and lost as well. Here is the kicker Bill 3 B-17's are credited to JG 1 overall. Hptm Staiger 1, Leutnant Heckmann 1, and Ihlefeld 1 giving him his 123 victory. So what is this baloney about knocking down B-24's in the listing ? so mone should of done a thorough double check on their text

.

It is always "hordes of Mustangs' with Prien.

At the beginning, one group of Mustangs engaged around wittengen and chased JG1 all over the place at 1200-1220. When the two sections of 355th engaged between 1210-1230 approximately six to seven out of twenty four flights of the two groups actually engaged 100-125+ Fw 190s and 109s. These fighters probably account for losses as far east as Stendal and Wittenberge. That would be a maximum of 28 Mustangs (actually less because of early returns for both groups)

The only claims east of Hannover were 355th and 361st. The chases to Magdeburg and Salzwedel could have been individuals from either group... ditto Peine. The 339th didn't engage until all of the 2BD B-24s had turned for home and were under Hannover after leaving Misburg behind.

NFW for JG1 on B-17s unless they engaged before 1140, then returned to the east to pick up more JG1 and come back to Gifhorn/Gardelegen axis by 1200-1210 and meet with 361st and 355th elements. The Forts bombing Merseburg were done 20 minutes before the B-24s reached Hannover, inbound. That was ~ 1200 for the leading 389th heading for Celle. Additionally I haven't found any B-17s lost in that area - all seemed to be Osnabruck force 100+ miles west.

Last but not least I have been somewhat suspicious of Staiger as he claimed 3 Mustangs for JG 26 east of Munich for April 24 Munich fight, rendering all of JG 27, JG 3 awards meaningless - in the same general area. Having said that both Bartels and Dahl claimed thre in the same general area. One or more of those three significantly overclaimed.

 

[Erich]

would not surprise me that Dahl did the claiming.

upon further reading then we can suppose that the 355th fg contacted and mixed it up with JG 1 as well as JG 301 from the south as an overlap when upon the BG's return homeward and the engagements went from south to west and somewhat north the 339th fg was involved ?

 

[drgondog]

Bill
as far as I can remember the 491st bg rep told me his bg was in the traling position behind the 445th and then leading the 398.

E - I am sure that 389th was in the lead with two squadrons of 445 at tail of first box, the 445th in lead two squadrons of second box with 491st in rear of the second box.

The 2SF also positioned the 491st in trail and exposed to 6 o'clock attacks



am going by memory for nearly all my responses in this thread my data file is now over 6 inchs thick just on this one crazy mission.

yes have Woods silly listing the Jg 301 pilots listed are almost every pilot in the Geschwader but out of those 60 claims it was incredibly downsized right after the action and nearly corresponds with the actual B-24 losses though the claims of 5 B-17's should of read B-24's. I feel no doubt that even in the day operational skies JG 301 was so hard pressed that pilots glued to their sights fired and flew off to escape without even 100 % confirming their claims.

I include JG 27 on the date only as this is what is recorded for all of Nov. 26, 44 actions and as mentioned even honorable German authors with what limited details they have about this mission are incorrect in their thinking. Will say bill that you and I even on this board not counting our privates to one another have covered this days actions probably more than anyone living on the planet

E ` and I will check out your report soon, thanks friend and I still feel that JG 1 was flying off to the north of the area we are concerned with

It is almost certain that they were in that area and line of attack, as well as being some 20 minutes ahead of JG301. What is seriously sad about the JG1 claims is that they never engaged with the Misburg force as neither B-17s (earlier) had no losses there, and B-24's didn't lose the first ship until 389th ship took hit on bomb run around 1230-1235.. then all hell broke loose at 1240 when JG301 hit from the rear.

What award process did Prien and Butler/Woods miss when the claims were whittled down. Reschke's recollection seems to match the 'woods list' rather than reality - especially on the P-51 awards.

 

[drgondog]

would not surprise me that Dahl did the claiming.

upon further reading then we can suppose that the 355th fg contacted and mixed it up with JG 1 as well as JG 301 from the south as an overlap when upon the BG's return homeward and the engagements went from south to west and somewhat north the 339th fg was involved ?

Bill Lyons very specific recollection is that 357 FS saw a LOT of specks approaching from east-northeast, ranging from 11-1 o'clock out in front of bomber course - the encounter reports all work around 1210 as initial start of attck by 355th. The bomber track was almost due east above Hannover to Celle, then a deep turn to the southwest at approximately 1220 at the IP and the bomb run.

While the two section block of 357FS first hit the 190/109s over Gifhorn, the lead B-24s were about to turn at the IP. Clearly not the JG301 which according to Reschke had taken off from Stendal at 1140-1150 and headed east. The timing of the JG 301 attack with 491st BG ~ 1240 seems reasonable to lift, collect into formation, climb to 28+K and go to Misburg in 40 minutes seems right.

The 361st engagement with JG1 (probably) occurred from 1150-1210 over Wittengen places that fight w/JG1 and the subsequent engagement by Lyon's section at 1210 over Gifhorn draws a straight east-northeast to west-southwest track for JG1.

the 354FS engaged during to run from the IP to the target and beyond to the Rally Point and thence due west to perhaps south of Hannover.

The SF engaged right at the bomb run/bombs away for the last squadron of 491st. The Red flight of 358FS hit JG 301 at and southwest of Misburg.

So, the course was 90 degrees to ~ Celle, 215 to Misburg and the Rally point about 5 miles sw of Misburg (incidently one of the KU reports has the remains of six B-24s in about a two mile circle near this point on the ground.
I am reasonably sure this pile of debris was from the first wave of JG 301 hitting the last squadron right after bombs away at ~ 1240.

From the RP the B-24 headed due west and the 339th joined the fight to finally drive off all of JG 301 at or about 1245-1250 for first contact - all the way to sw of Dummer Lake at 1300-1310.

 

[Erich]

I think Lyons saw JG 301 coming at the B-24's though they were from the east to the west-SW, they came from 3 different Airfields and then tried to form a Gefechtsverband as a whole unit to make a rare monstrous attack as a whole Geschwader which was not totally achieved.

the losses are from the SE of Hannover/Misburg to the south (where my cousin fell) to the SW and west before JG 301 what was left of them returned in pitiful amounts back to bases. several years ago I plotted the crash sites on a map - pretty depressing. I even plotted the B-24 route from the NW to the target and then out but cannot find it for the moment. Never did plot the US escort plans reason I asked if you had one in the works or on file.

Bill you make mention on the out from the oil refineries that the B-24's headed west and I am going from memory but in my mind it is pictured they headed NW where they were set upon again by remnants of JG 301 and this is where the 339th fg pulled I./JG 301 especially away from the bombers into the west/SW ridge line.

Supposedly Reschke has 26 Nov. 44 claims on record-where he got them ? most likely from the group historian during the war, Prien then was in touch with Reschke and with his own private data published what I posted earlier, now with that let me state and we have discussed this in the pat about "hordes of Mustangs", the LW pilots especially young in-experienced believed just that -there would be thousands of silver streaks in the air to contend with even when they were not even present yet as the LW pilots set up the motions to form up to place an attack from the rear................. this I can understandably agree with.

 

[drgondog]

I think Lyons saw JG 301 coming at the B-24's though they were from the east to the west-SW, they came from 3 different Airfields and then tried to form a Gefechtsverband as a whole unit to make a rare monstrous attack as a whole Geschwader which was not totally achieved.

Erich - neither the timing (1210) nor the mix (190/109) seems to point to JG 301.

the losses are from the SE of Hannover/Misburg to the south (where my cousin fell) to the SW and west before JG 301 what was left of them returned in pitiful amounts back to bases. several years ago I plotted the crash sites on a map - pretty depressing. I even plotted the B-24 route from the NW to the target and then out but cannot find it for the moment. Never did plot the US escort plans reason I asked if you had one in the works or on file.

The B-24 IP was for certain NE of Misburg and the track was for certain N. Dummer Lake toward Celle in a straight line. The actual IP for the south or sw turn is still in question but the location of the wrecks sw of Misburg from the bomb run points to the IP at or very near Celle and a sw direction for the bomb run.

Bill you make mention on the out from the oil refineries that the B-24's headed west and I am going from memory but in my mind it is pictured they headed NW where they were set upon again by remnants of JG 301 and this is where the 339th fg pulled I./JG 301 especially away from the bombers into the west/SW ridge line.

The macrs paint an ugly picture of wrecks from just sw of Misburg all along a line westward, south of Hannover, toward Dummer Lake. The route was a horseshoe with straight legs running east above Hannover, and west below Hannover with Misburg on the lower 'round part' of the horseshoe.

Supposedly Reschke has 26 Nov. 44 claims on record-where he got them ? most likely from the group historian during the war, Prien then was in touch with Reschke and with his own private data published what I posted earlier, now with that let me state and we have discussed this in the pat about "hordes of Mustangs", the LW pilots especially young in-experienced believed just that -there would be thousands of silver streaks in the air to contend with even when they were not even present yet as the LW pilots set up the motions to form up to place an attack from the rear................. this I can understandably agree with.

I have zero problem with combat recollections including time hacks.. when you are kinda busy time flies. I do know from long study of all the assembled 8th AF reports that the 'horde's in most cases were individual two to four plane flight up to sections of seven to eight US fighters doing the actual shooting in any local area.

I am also aware of up to 20-30 US fighters chasing one or two Me 262s so that qualifies as a horde.

 

[Erich]

I have two maps Bill from a researcher and also from the rep of the 491st bg am going to have to try and post them ........ha ha with what scant equipment I have.

if Lyons yes witnessed 109's then surely from JG 1 not JG 301 at all. I think Reschke is still confused as to where his unit somewhat formed up for the initial attack to take place. the claims of actions in his book are still a mix up. Bill you mention KU reports for this mission 5 B-24's south of Misburg, so can you make copies if this is not tedious ? frankly I do not have them available to me.

 

[drgondog]

I have two maps Bill from a researcher and also from the rep of the 491st bg am going to have to try and post them ........ha ha with what scant equipment I have.

if Lyons yes witnessed 109's then surely from JG 1 not JG 301 at all. I think Reschke is still confused as to where his unit somewhat formed up for the initial attack to take place. the claims of actions in his book are still a mix up. Bill you mention KU reports for this mission 5 B-24's south of Misburg, so can you make copies if this is not tedious ? frankly I do not have them available to me.

I'll send one asap 3390 and look for 3387 and 3366

Incidently I have seen two indicators that the bomb run was made at 170 degree heading vs 215 - for 445th ships and trying to find if if this is the sdn that bombed early and headed for the RP alone.

 

[Erich]

Bill thanks in advance when time permits send along my way...........

E ~

 

[drgondog]

Bill thanks in advance when time permits send along my way...........

E ~

I have one to send and now lookin for KU3366.

Note: I have plotted most of the crash sites. ALL except the 389th flak hit are south of Misburg, mostly between Hildesheim/Springe and Misburg, then a couple south of Hannover around 1258-1300. The last two were limp offs from the post strike attack ~ 1240-1245.The last two were almost certainly double counted - once in the first hit and then later as a straggler...

Based on the timing of the B-24 hulks and the timing of the credits for 354, 358 and 2SF I now believe that most of their engagements were with JG301. Only 357 Red/Yellow seem to have engaged w/JG1. I am now trying to retrieve one of the B-24 Macrs describing a large force of German fighters departing northbound before the bomb run. That could only be JG1 in my opinion and would have followed the 357FS and 361 FG engagements around Gifhorn to Wittengen.

I need to get my 355FG history out of storage and look harder as it synthesizes the three squadron's ops summaries..

There were also two references to bomb run heading of 170 degrees and the inbound/outbound routes as 'straight in and straight out'.

 

[Wayne Little]

Hey Erich...at some stage i'm going to request of you a bit of a basic map of the Misburg raid...that is the allied track...and how JG301 attacked so I can have an underlay map of what happened and where White 2 and 1 crashed after their attacks...Once I complete my White 1 model both will sit on a map base titled 'Final Flight' with some details of the events...similar to what I presented with White 2 at the model comps...

 

[Erich]

think Bill and I can get something somehow together we still need to connect sadly we are only 45 miles away from one another if that and still haven't gotten together, but it will happen ...........

E ~

 

[Wayne Little]

think Bill and I can get something somehow together we still need to connect sadly we are only 45 miles away from one another if that and still haven't gotten together, but it will happen ...........

E ~

I appreciate that...thanks!

 

[drgondog]

think Bill and I can get something somehow together we still need to connect sadly we are only 45 miles away from one another if that and still haven't gotten together, but it will happen ...........

E ~

Erich - we have stretched the link somewhat - we moved to Scurry Texas in June - about 2200 miles by vehicle..

 

[Erich]

ah permanently now Bill ?

got the first scan do you have time for a another send off ?

E ~

 

[drgondog]

ah permanently now Bill ?

got the first scan do you have time for a another send off ?

E ~

yes - over next couple of days..

 

[drgondog]

Hey Erich...at some stage i'm going to request of you a bit of a basic map of the Misburg raid...that is the allied track...and how JG301 attacked so I can have an underlay map of what happened and where White 2 and 1 crashed after their attacks...Once I complete my White 1 model both will sit on a map base titled 'Final Flight' with some details of the events...similar to what I presented with White 2 at the model comps...

Wayne - start over North sea west of Amsterdam - draw a line due east (actual heading ~ 100) above Dummer Lake, above Hannover to a point just west of Celle, north of Misbug (Misburg about 15 miles east of Hannover city center). Turn south ~ 170 degrees over Misburg and further south about 15 miles to area around Hildesheim/Springe.. that was the Rally point.

Turn west about 270 degrees and run a line south of Hannover, to Dummer Lake, and out over Netherlands to North Sea and head sw for home.

The fist fighter attacks occurred from Wittengen/Celle but were beaten off by 361st FG and a couple of flights of the 355th. The remainder (~ 60-70 Fw 190s plus 109s left the area and headed north, away from the bombers.

About 20-25 minutes later from first contact, JG 301 came from Stendal, and surrounding airfields almost due east from Gifhorn and Misburg toward Misburg. They hit the trailing 491st BG just after bombs away and wiped out the last squadron. Approximately six of the nine B-24s went down south of the target around the Rally Point.. more went down further west toward an area due south of Hannover (SW Misburg, due west of Hildesheim) and the last just sw of Hannover. The last two were 'limp off's from the first attack that struggled away and then either blew up or abandoned ship.

The bulk of the 355th/2SF kills were from target to south of Hannover. All of the 339th kills were from south of Hannover to east of Dummer Lake. All of the 361st kills and 9 of the 355th kills were in the Celle, Gifhorn and Wittengen area.

Visualize the fighter clashes as in a circle from Celle to Wittengen and back south to Hildesheim and back west under Hannover and beyond to Dummer Lake..