Old Thailand Aircrash

[islandee]

I've been given a report describing aircraft wreckage sitting on a mountainside in Mae Hong Son Province, Thailand --- the northwesterly-most corner of the country. The site is not easily accessed, as in a 2-hour 4-wheel drive up a river bed followed by a 2-hour hike. And directions are not at all clear. Not the sort of trip to do in the current (very) rainy season with flooding, washouts, landslides, dengue fever, etc, and concerns about a coronapanic lockdown being reactivated.

From the limited information given about the wreck, I've checked a list of Thai military aircraft in Young, Aerial Nationalism (Washington: Smithsonian, 1995), pp 261-262, and find the only American, 9-cylinder, 2-blade prop aircraft is a Vought Corsair V93S. The model was purchased in 1934 and saw action during WW2.

With that as a hint, I pass the following details from the report to the forum and ask if anyone can confirm that identification from these details. A caution: the description is translated from Thai and terminology may be misleading.

"Shock parts & wheel hub with numbers 1 USA, ALS 4125, El 1241 AF BIC 2 F"

Inscriptions from "two aluminum plates thought to be from a wing" (see sketch "ww2_image_1.jpg")

A radial, 9-cylinder engine (see photo "ww2_image_2.jpg"), with various numbers (not visible in the photo): "14140 H 12414 L GRP 11"

A 2-bladed propeller

An unknown device that looks like a housing (see photo "ww2_image_3.jpg"). The letters "HAYES" are barely legible in the photo.

The report is dated 1998. The photos are dated 14 Mar 1998 and are obviously the result of several generations of copying; unfortunately better copies don't seem to be available.

Hak Hakanson
Chiang Mai

 

[SaparotRob]

I've been given a report describing aircraft wreckage sitting on a mountainside in Mae Hong Son Province, Thailand --- the northwesterly-most corner of the country. The site is not easily accessed, as in a 2-hour 4-wheel drive up a river bed followed by a 2-hour hike. And directions are not at all clear. Not the sort of trip to do in the current (very) rainy season with flooding, washouts, landslides, dengue fever, etc, and concerns about a coronapanic lockdown being reactivated.

From the limited information given about the wreck, I've checked a list of Thai military aircraft in Young, Aerial Nationalism (Washington: Smithsonian, 1995), pp 261-262, and find the only American, 9-cylinder, 2-blade prop aircraft is a Vought Corsair V93S. The model was purchased in 1934 and saw action during WW2.

With that as a hint, I pass the following details from the report to the forum and ask if anyone can confirm that identification from these details. A caution: the description is translated from Thai and terminology may be misleading.

"Shock parts & wheel hub with numbers 1 USA, ALS 4125, El 1241 AF BIC 2 F"

Inscriptions from "two aluminum plates thought to be from a wing" (see sketch "ww2_image_1.jpg")

A radial, 9-cylinder engine (see photo "ww2_image_2.jpg"), with various numbers (not visible in the photo): "14140 H 12414 L GRP 11"

A 2-bladed propeller

An unknown device that looks like a housing (see photo "ww2_image_3.jpg"). The letters "HAYES" are barely legible in the photo.

The report is dated 1998. The photos are dated 14 Mar 1998 and are obviously the result of several generations of copying; unfortunately better copies don't seem to be available.

Hak Hakanson
Chiang Mai

What's the closest town to the location?

 

[islandee]

In the case of the Corsair, about 20 km south of Mae Hong Son City.

For the Japanese aircraft, near Omkoi.

 

[SaparotRob]

In the case of the Corsair, about 20 km south of Mae Hong Son City.

For the Japanese aircraft, near Omkoi.

Thanks. We might be headed Khon Kaen way in a few months. Depends on travel hassle issues.
I'd like to check it out, wife permitting.

 

[islandee]

Another crash in Thailand, involving the IJAAF, and new to me: no reference I've found is clear about where it occurred, but I gather it would have been at or very near Lampang Airfield. I'm wondering if anyone might have additional information? Here's what I do have:

1. Umemoto [梅本弘 (Umemoto, Hiroshi), ビルマ航空戦・上 (Air War in Burma, Vol 1) (Tokyo: Dai Nippon, 2002)] includes in his log the crash of one or more 31st Sentai Ki-30 light bombers attempting to land presumably somewhere around Lampang during low visibility on 19 Feb 1942.

Umemoto describes (I include the Japanese because the Google Translation to English seems very weak):

2月19日

2/31 九七軽 不明 ランパン付近河原 帰途・煙霧、黄砂のため地点標定ができず 不時着大破・人員無事

2/31 九七軽 不明 ランパン付近河原 帰途・煙霧、黄砂のため地点標定ができず 不時着・人機とも帰還

which Google translates (roughly) as:

Date: February 19
Unit: 2/31
Crashed aircraft: Type 97 light bomber [Ki-30]
Pilot: unknown
Location: Kawahara near Lampang
Cause: Returning home, haze, yellow sand made it impossible to locate [the home base, Lampang Airfield]
Details: Crash landing on you, and personnel were safe

Unit: 2/31
Crashed aircraft: Type 97 light bomber [Ki-30]
Pilot: unknown
Location: Kawahara near Lampang
Cause: Returning to the river ・ Haze and yellow sand made it impossible to locate the location
Details: Both crash landing and human aircraft returned
[This second event is listed in total five times; ie, five additional Ki-30s in the 31st Sentai, presumably in that same flight, all met the same landing conditions and crashed without loss of life]

If "Kawahara" is properly translated, there is no "Kawahara" that I can find near Lampang.

Umemoto's commentary covering that period, pp 57-71, doesn't seem to mention the incident.

2. Senshi Sosho volume 34's only comment appears to be on p 599. In (Google) translation, "On the way back, the 31st Squadron was unable to locate the location [Lampang] due to the haze, and was / were swept away by a strong southwesterly wind, leaving one aircraft uncertain."

3. Shores, et al, Bloody Shambles, volume 2, pp 269-270: ". . . 31st Sentai bombers, escorted by 77th Sentai Ki-27s attacked Pyinmana station, 50 miles north of Toungoo. On the return flight heavy mist was encountered and one bomber was lost; three more were seriously damaged in force-landings."

4. Steve Darke doesn't mention it in his webpage, Thai Air Accidents.

5. I don't believe that Dan Ford mentions the event on-line or in his book, Flying Tigers, since it didn't involve the AVG.

 

[MiTasol]

"Shock parts & wheel hub with numbers 1 USA, ALS 4125, El 1241 AF BIC 2 F"

An unknown device that looks like a housing (see photo "ww2_image_3.jpg"). The letters "HAYES" are barely legible in the photo.

The report is dated 1998. The photos are dated 14 Mar 1998 and are obviously the result of several generations of copying; unfortunately better copies don't seem to be available.

Hak Hakanson
Chiang Mai

Gidday Hak
I will look at some references for the wheel but doubt I have anything that old

Hayes made brakes and that may be the dust cover from the back of a brake (N below). If there is a better shot showing more surrounding detail that may help confirm the part. Likewise part numbers would help - even if there is no reference to the number it could indicate time frame = eg pre or post say AT-6A brakes

 

[MiTasol]

The Kawahara aircraft were probably salvaged in the next day or two and one or more may have even been flown out. Just guessing from Details: Both crash landing and human aircraft returned which is, as you say, a giggle translation.

 

[Shinpachi]

2月19日

2/31 九七軽 不明 ランパン付近河原 帰途・煙霧、黄砂のため地点標定ができず 不時着大破・人員無事

2/31 九七軽 不明 ランパン付近河原 帰途・煙霧、黄砂のため地点標定ができず 不時着・人機とも帰還

February 19

2/31 (No idea what this means) / Type 97 light bomber(s) / (one or some) missing / (Also) on the river beach near Lampang on the way home, (as) unable to ID location by haze, yellow dust / (one or some) land crashed to be wrecked / No casualties.

2/31 (No idea what this means) / Type 97 light bomber(s) / (one or some) missing / (Also) on the river beach near Lampang on the way home, (as) unable to ID location by haze, yellow dust / (one or some) land crashed / Crew & plane came home.

 

[MiTasol]

I cannot guarantee that the Vought Corsair V93S followed later VS aircraft but if so the part number should start with VS-

Likewise I would expect the inspection stamp to have VS

instead of N inside it.

The N inspection stamp may be the Navy predecessor to the later AN military inspection stamp or it may also be a component manufacturers stamp. I know of multiple versions of the Air Corps inspection stamps but I do not know what the Navy ones looked like although I would expect NAV or maybe NAB for Naval Aircraft Bureau.

To me the N would more likely suggest a manufacturer, or component manufacturer, whose name started with N like Northrop but as far as I know all Northrop aircraft were all metal construction and the large amount of steel tubing suggests your fuselage frame was welded steel tube construction and therefore not Northrop.

The part number construction suggests North American model 05 with the part being 18005 which would be a flap if the standard NAA part number practices applied that early. I doubt there ever was a model 05 and therefore that is not worth wasting time on. Their first production aircraft were all NA-16 derivatives as far as I am aware.
The NAA basic stamp is

with many variations including

which is similar to your stamp and, along with the part number structure, is what made me suspect then eliminate a NAA product

An interesting conundrum for certain and I wish you luck.

Fortunately there are many people on this site and collectively we have accumulated vast knowledge so other members may well have the answers or provide you, or others, with the vital clue that solves the puzzle.

 

[islandee]

MiTasol:

Thank you for your brainstorming. The photos & info I presented here (in my first question) are all second hand, more than 22 years old. Current staff at the source, Tango Squadron at Chiang Mai, know nothing about the subject; past / retired staff that can be found don't recall the discovery. Until we get up to the site (assuming that we can even find it from the vaguely worded description) --- and that will hopefully be this winter, I can't give you any more data.

 

[islandee]

Shinpachi:

My apologies. It is my fault for putting you at a disadvantage. I'm asking about information written in Japanese and have not given its context. Here is the source page for your clarification:

(I would gather from other entries on the page that 2/31 is an organizational unit and refers to the 2nd Chutai of the 31st Sentai?).

 

[Shinpachi]

Shinpachi:

My apologies. It is my fault for putting you at a disadvantage. I'm asking about information written in Japanese and have not given its context. Here is the source page for your clarification:View attachment 600633
(I would gather from other entries on the page that 2/31 is an organizational unit and refers to the 2nd Chutai of the 31st Sentai?).

Can be read with the list like this -

Date / Unit / Aircraft / Flyer or pilot / Location of crashed or damaged / Opponent or cause / Remark (crashed when no remark)

Feb 19 / 2/31 / Type 97 light bomber / Unknown / Near the river beach of Lampang / Unable to ID location by haze, yellow dust on the way home / Emergency landing to be wrecked. No casualties

Feb 19 / 2/31 / Type 97 light bomber / Unknown / Near the river beach of Lampang / Unable to ID location by haze, yellow dust on the way home / Emergency landing. Crew & plane came home

 

[MiTasol]

Shinpachi:

My apologies. It is my fault for putting you at a disadvantage. I'm asking about information written in Japanese and have not given its context. Here is the source page for your clarification:View attachment 600633
(I would gather from other entries on the page that 2/31 is an organizational unit and refers to the 2nd Chutai of the 31st Sentai?).

A nice chart and clean presentation. I wonder why the aircraft serial and crew names were not recorded. As a guess, because it would have made the table too large or cluttered.

Islandee - does this book cover the 1942 raids on Darwin? If yes where do I get a copy of the book?

 

[MiTasol]

MiTasol:

Thank you for your brainstorming. The photos & info I presented here (in my first question) are all second hand, more than 22 years old. Current staff at the source, Tango Squadron at Chiang Mai, know nothing about the subject; past / retired staff that can be found don't recall the discovery. Until we get up to the site (assuming that we can even find it from the vaguely worded description) --- and that will hopefully be this winter, I can't give you any more data.

Sounds like a good mystery to chase down. Another 22 years of mother nature and humans will, unfortunately, not have improved the site and wreckage but a fresh pair of eyes can still often find good evidence despite these hassles.

Wish I could be there with you.

 

[islandee]

Shinpachi: Thank you for the updated translation.

 

[islandee]

MiTasol:

Darwin bombing: 19 Feb 1942. Alas, no: Umemoto is faithful to his title, Burma Airwar. By the same token, aircraft losses in Thailand are only listed when they in some way involve the IJAAF and Burma. Hence, for example, the IJAAF 1941 attack on Thailand from points east is not covered.

 

[MiTasol]

Oh well, one can only hope. There are RAAF records of Oscars in Darwin raids as late as July 42 so I was interested in seeing if that was true or just miss-identification.

 

[islandee]

MiTasol: I may have answered too quickly about Umemoto's coverage of Darwin. I'm continuing down the table at the end of his book (it's about 53 pages in the first volume, so I've got a long way to go) and I'm finding many instances listed of IJAAF and Brit losses / damage for the attacks on Colombo and Trincomalee in April 1942. That might suggest that Darwin may not show in the tables because there were no IJAAF losses on 19 Feb 1942 and no shootdowns of RAAF aircraft. No air combat. No dogfights. Would that be correct?

I'm out of my element with regard to IJAAF attacks on northern Australia: but one way to test if this is why nothing shows for the 19 Feb 1942 attack --- Wikipedia indicates that there were numerous attacks on northern Australia. Did any later attacks get opposed by the RAAF --- with planes downed as a result? Or IJAAF planes downed by AA fire in later attacks? If so, pass me some dates and I'll check: those losses should appear in Umemoto's listing.

I've not yet tried to go much into the commentary that takes up most of the book. There may be some discussion there about the attack on Darwin.

 

[Shinpachi]

Oh well, one can only hope. There are RAAF records of Oscars in Darwin raids as late as July 42 so I was interested in seeing if that was true or just miss-identification.

The Japanese army aircraft, including Ki-43, did not join the attack on Darwin until June 20, 1943.
However, as IJAAF started preparation for the future attack on Darwin in April 1942, there might have been any trial approach to the airspace in 1942.

 

[MiTasol]

Thank you sir. That helps considerably