P-38 with Roll-Royce Merlins

MIflyer · Jul 21, 2019

After being "fired" and replaced with Leigh-Mallory as a reward for winning the BoB, Park went to the Med where he put in another excellent, war-winning performance. Meanwhile, Leigh-Mallory seemed to be focused on putting large unwieldy formations of Spitfires over France, where the Germans sniped at them at leisure.

And as for the paper drop tanks, my understanding is that the 8th sent some to Wright Field to be evaluated, and then went ahead and used them successfully, while months later Wright Field reported they were unsuitable; this was ignored. However, as I understand it now the 50 gal metal drop tanks were still used on missions that did not require the range. I suppose the metal ones had the considerable maintenance advantage of not having to be defueled and thrown away if the mission was scrubbed or delayed.
I'll post the applicable notes from the book but it appears Kennedy is not relying on primary sources but on other books, although an admittedly impressive list, mostly publications I have never seen.

drgondog · Jul 21, 2019

MIflyer said:
After being "fired" and replaced with Leigh-Mallory as a reward for winning the BoB, Park went to the Med where he put in another excellent, war-winning performance. Meanwhile, Leigh-Mallory seemed to be focused on putting large unwieldy formations of Spitfires over France, where the Germans sniped at them at leisure.

And as for the paper drop tanks, my understanding is that the 8th sent some to Wright Field to be evaluated, and then went ahead and used them successfully, while months later Wright Field reported they were unsuitable; this was ignored. However, as I understand it now the 50 gal metal drop tanks were still used on missions that did not require the range. I suppose the metal ones had the considerable maintenance advantage of not having to be defueled and thrown away if the mission was scrubbed or delayed.
I'll post the applicable notes from the book but it appears Kennedy is not relying on primary sources but on other books, although an admittedly impressive list, mostly publications I have never seen.
View attachment 545347 View attachment 545348 View attachment 545349 View attachment 545350

The most single comprehensive reference (not mentioned) is USAF Study 136 - Boylon. Ludwig (and I) drew heavily to address Material Command, AAC/AAF-HQ palace intrigue as well as the evolution of AAC/AAC doctrine of Air War Plans 1 &2.

MIflyer · Jul 22, 2019

By the way, while I recognize what is required in the way of advanced planning and logistics for new systems - I was in both Log Command and Systems command as well as in Acquisition at the Pentagon - the disastrous losses of the Back Thursday and Munster raids in Oct 1943 certainly did influence the use of the Merlin Mustang for bomber escort.

Remember, the Merlin Mustang was ONLY going to the 9th Air Force, for tactical use. The new Mustang Pioneer Group of the 9th came over to the ETO in late 1943. The only reason the 8th got Mustangs is that Don Blakeslee went to the Pioneer Group and led them on their first missions. Then he came back to the 4th Ftr Group and made his famous pledge to Gen Kepner, "I'll have them in combat in 24 hours" and then told his pilots, "You can learn to fly them on the way to the target."

And learn to fly them they did, but there were teething problems. On the first Mustang bomber escort to Berlin on 4 March 1944 only 8 Mustangs made it to the target area. But they came right back on the 6th.

The RAF started using the Mustang III for tactical fighter bomber work in Feb 1944, not for long range escort..

Conslaw · Jul 22, 2019

MIflyer said:
By the way, while I recognize what is required in the way of advanced planning and logistics for new systems - I was in both Log Command and Systems command as well as in Acquisition at the Pentagon - the disastrous losses of the Back Thursday and Munster raids in Oct 1943 certainly did influence the use of the Merlin Mustang for bomber escort.

Remember, the Merlin Mustang was ONLY going to the 9th Air Force, for tactical use. The new Mustang Pioneer Group of the 9th came over to the ETO in late 1943. The only reason the 8th got Mustangs is that Don Blakeslee went to the Pioneer Group and led them on their first missions. Then he came back to the 4th Ftr Group and made his famous pledge to Gen Kepner, "I'll have them in combat in 24 hours" and then told his pilots, "You can learn to fly them on the way to the target."

And learn to fly them they did, but there were teething problems. On the first Mustang bomber escort to Berlin on 4 March 1944 only 8 Mustangs made it to the target area. But they came right back on the 6th.

The RAF started using the Mustang III for tactical fighter bomber work in Feb 1943, not for long range escort..

Are you sure the RAF started using the Mustang 3 in Feb 1943? Joe Baugher says Feb 1944, after having received them in December 1943. Quoting Baugher:

"The first RAF base to receive Mustang IIIs was at Gravesend in Kent. The Mustang III initially equipped No. 65 Squadron in late December of 1943, followed by No. 19 Squadron in March of 1944. Later the Mk. III also equipped Nos 64, 65, 66, 93, 94, 112, 118, 122, 126, 129, 165, 234, 237, 241 249, 250, 260, 268, 306, 309, 315, 316, 345, 430, 441, 442, and 516 Squadrons and No. 541 Squadron of RAF Coastal Command. These units included four Polish squadrons (306, 309, 315, 316), three RCAF, and one Free French.

The new RAF Mustang IIIs began operations late in February 1944, escorting US heavy bombers as well as both US and RAF medium bombers."

wuzak · Jul 22, 2019

Conslaw said:
Are you sure the RAF started using the Mustang 3 in Feb 1943? Joe Baugher says Feb 1944, after having received them in December 1943.

I don't believe the P-51B/Mustang III was in production in February 1943, or at least none had been completed.

So I think he has made a typo, the date supposed to be 1944.

Deleted member 68059 · Jul 22, 2019

wuzak said:
I don't believe the P-51B/Mustang III was in production in February 1943, or at least none had been completed.

So I think he has made a typo, the date supposed to be 1944.

The British AFDU report on the Mustang III was dated March 1944, with the request for the trials to be done being dated 28th December 1943.

Everything online just references Baugher, so looking at the actual 65 Squadron records for Dec 1943 the following is recorded:

"14th December 1943 - The squadron recieved notification that it was to be re-equipped with Mustang III aircraft, and a technical representative of North American Aviation Ltd called to see the Squadron Commander. Speculation was rife in the squadron as to the new role to be performaned with these long range aircraft. No.65 Squadron has been honored as the first squadron to be re-equipped with these new aircraft"....

"17th December 1943 - One manuscript copy of the pilots notes for the Mustang III aircraft was recived and eagerly perused by the pilots who were very interested in the new type of aircraft of the Squadeon and much discussion took place in the dispersal."

"23rd December 1943 - A lecture on Mustang III aircraft was given to all pilots in the briefing room by Flt.Lt Yates of No.122 airfield, no operational flying was carried out"

"27th December 1943 - There was again no flying due to fog...the squadron pilots had been carrying out cockpit drill and re-arming practice with the Mustang aircraft, of which 9 have been recieved to date and all were taking every advantage of chances of becoming conversant with this type of aircraft. An American technical advisor had arrived on the airfield and he was questioned as to the performance etc. and gave the squadron as much information as possible"

"29th December 1943 - The first flights were made in the Mustang III aircraft"

Note: Its c;ear from the record that NO actual operational combat sorties were carried out by 65 Squadron in 1943, just some familiarisation flights around the vicinity of the airfield.

Looking at the squadron records for Jan 1944.....

"4th January 1944 - The Squadron became non-operational in order to concentrate on training flights in the Mustang III aircraft. Trouble was experienced in obtaining oxygen fittings and getting the aircraft servicable. Pilots did further cockpit drill"

"6th January 1944 - One section carried out a scramble,...vectored to 3 enemy aircraft following a mosquito home - the Mosquito was seen but there was no sign of the e/a. Eight Spitfire aircraft were ferried to Detling on being withdrawn."

From the aircraft log numbers on the squadron record for Jan 1944 - it appers that even in Jan 1944, no actual combat sorties were flown in the Mustang III, I dont have the Feb squadron logbook, but I would make a guess that in terms of actual OPERATIONS, the Mustang III in Britain almost certainly didnt become combat active until at least Feb 1944, so Baugher probably actually has bothered to read the log-book, or at least read something by someone who DID !

e.g. on 14th Jan the following planes flew, and all the plane log #s flown before 14th in 65 Squadron had Spit IX serials. (annoyingly the Jan logbook for plane serials ends at 14th Jan).

MH 851 (a Spitfire IX) - flown by R. J. C. Grant
MH 908 (a Spitfire IX) - R.L. Stillwell
MH 388 (a Spitfire IX) - R. F. Waterman
MH 378 (a Spitfire IX) - R. T. Williams
MH 824 (a Spitfire IX) - K. Gillham

MIflyer · Jul 22, 2019

Of course I meant to type Feb 44. I realized that later but I've been too busy to come back and correct it.

Peter Gunn · Jul 23, 2019

MIflyer said:
Of course I meant to type Feb 44. I realized that later but I've been too busy to come back and correct it.

I'm not sure I can countenance such a terrible error when talking about the Mustang...

drgondog · Jul 23, 2019

MIflyer said:
By the way, while I recognize what is required in the way of advanced planning and logistics for new systems - I was in both Log Command and Systems command as well as in Acquisition at the Pentagon - the disastrous losses of the Back Thursday and Munster raids in Oct 1943 certainly did influence the use of the Merlin Mustang for bomber escort.

The 'clarion call' from multiple high level sources for the Merlin Mustang began in July 1943 and orchestrated between Emmons, Eaker and Lovett following the heavy losses during Blitz Week.

Remember, the Merlin Mustang was ONLY going to the 9th Air Force, for tactical use. The new Mustang Pioneer Group of the 9th came over to the ETO in late 1943. The only reason the 8th got Mustangs is that Don Blakeslee went to the Pioneer Group and led them on their first missions. Then he came back to the 4th Ftr Group and made his famous pledge to Gen Kepner, "I'll have them in combat in 24 hours" and then told his pilots, "You can learn to fly them on the way to the target."

Not quite - The assignment of P-51B to 9th AF was indeed made by General Schlatter in May 1943 - to replace P-39, P-40 and P-51A for Tactical Air. The 354th trained in P-39s, was sent to ETO in October, and acquired P-51Bs in November. The 357th and 363rd followed in November-December. By that time all P-51Bs were re-prioritized (including Mustang III) for escort duties and all conversions to F-6Cs were halted in favor of 85 gallon fuselage tank at the US and BAD2 Depots. The 354th received RAF Mustangs by the end of December, including some with the new Malcolm Hood. As great a leader as Blakeslee was, the decision to move the P-51B to 8th AF control was set in stone by Arnold in October/November. What Blakeslee's 'plea' got him was to switch the first full deployment of P-51B from 355th FG to the 4th FG beginning February 26, 1944. By that time the 357th had already transferred to the 8th in a swap for the P-47D 358th FG on February 1st. The 355th got their 'loaners' back from the 4th FG after the 3-8-44 Berlin Mission and flew their 1st P-51B mission on the 9th.

And learn to fly them they did, but there were teething problems. On the first Mustang bomber escort to Berlin on 4 March 1944 only 8 Mustangs made it to the target area. But they came right back on the 6th.

The RAF started using the Mustang III for tactical fighter bomber work in Feb 1944, not for long range escort..

Perhaps a few fine points. First Portal agreed to delegate Mustang III to support 8th AF escort in his meetings and cables with Arnold in September 1943. Portal further ordered Leigh-Mallory to assign the 2TAF Mustang III to support the 8th through May 1944. He also initiated the transfere of the early P-51B-5-NAs to the 8th AF in December. As a note, RAF 2TAF (Mustang III) flew several intermediate range escort missions (no 85 gallon fuse tank) from February when they received an allocation of new Mustang III to replace the loaners of December. All control of RAF and 9th AF Mustangs reverted back to them from the 8th at the end of May.

As to the March 4th Berlin Mission. The March 3rd was more notable. The 363rd made the first victory credit on 3-3-44 north/ne of Berlin (over Grabow) and in fact were the first US fighters over Berlin. The 354th also scored near Wittenberg and some flights escorted their bombers around Berlin and toward home, breaking escort SW of Berlin. The 8th AF cited the 55th FG P-38s as the 'first' but the 8th AF had better Public Relations arm than the 9th AF. The 4th FG engaged and was occupied near Wittenburg and to my knowledge did not catch up to their assigned boxes for Oranienburg, north of Berlin.

drgondog · Jul 23, 2019

Conslaw said:
Are you sure the RAF started using the Mustang 3 in Feb 1943? Joe Baugher says Feb 1944, after having received them in December 1943. Quoting Baugher:

"The first RAF base to receive Mustang IIIs was at Gravesend in Kent. The Mustang III initially equipped No. 65 Squadron in late December of 1943, followed by No. 19 Squadron in March of 1944. Later the Mk. III also equipped Nos 64, 65, 66, 93, 94, 112, 118, 122, 126, 129, 165, 234, 237, 241 249, 250, 260, 268, 306, 309, 315, 316, 345, 430, 441, 442, and 516 Squadrons and No. 541 Squadron of RAF Coastal Command. These units included four Polish squadrons (306, 309, 315, 316), three RCAF, and one Free French.

The new RAF Mustang IIIs began operations late in February 1944, escorting US heavy bombers as well as both US and RAF medium bombers."

So many of the FX series Mustang III were dispatched by Portal/Arnold agreement to USAAF 9th AF 354th FG at the end of December - leaving a few behind for training/familiarization until a steady stream of P-51B/C arrived to replace the snatched RAF contingent of November/December 1943.

pbehn · Jul 23, 2019

drgondog said:
Perhaps a few fine points. First Portal agreed to delegate Mustang III to support 8th AF escort in his meetings and cables with Arnold in September 1943. Portal further ordered Leigh-Mallory to assign the 2TAF Mustang III to support the 8th through May 1944.

It would have been completely extraordinary if Portal hadn't, orders are needed in the military to establish chains of command. Since the RAF had been providing Spitfires from the start refusing to allocate lease lend RAF Mustangs to US missions would take a special kind of madness.

MIflyer · Jul 23, 2019

"I'm not sure I can countenance such a terrible error when talking about the Mustang... "

I was much too busy too fix it even when I realized it.

I was taking a nap.

MIflyer · Jul 23, 2019

Something odd I read about the daylight heavy bomber raids the RAF conducted in the Cherborg area in support of the Normandy fighting. The Lancs were escorted by Spitfires until they got midway across the Channel and then escort was done by Mosquitoes, presumably FBVI. I've never heard of a Mossie being used for daylight escort before, other than perhaps for anti-shipping strikes. They had, for example, 65 Squadron, with Mustang III's and they seemed to operate in that area quite a bit anyway. .

Conslaw · Jul 25, 2019

MIflyer said:
Something odd I read about the daylight heavy bomber raids the RAF conducted in the Cherborg area in support of the Normandy fighting. The Lancs were escorted by Spitfires until they got midway across the Channel and then escort was done by Mosquitoes, presumably FBVI. I've never heard of a Mossie being used for daylight escort before, other than perhaps for anti-shipping strikes. They had, for example, 65 Squadron, with Mustang III's and they seemed to operate in that area quite a bit anyway. .

Sounds like a topic worthy of its own thread.

MIflyer · Jul 26, 2019

Yes, has anyone ever heard of Mossies being used for daylight escort, except for shipping strikes, where they were unlikely to encounter single engined fighters?

The DH98 was a wonder plane and no other equaled it in its versatility, but one on one against a single engined fighter it was not in the position to run away from, I don't think it had much of a chance. One of the RAF's top night fighter pilots was shot down by an FW-190 in daylight.

pbehn · Jul 26, 2019

MIflyer said:
Yes, has anyone ever heard of Mossies being used for daylight escort, except for shipping strikes, where they were unlikely to encounter single engined fighters?

The DH98 was a wonder plane and no other equaled it in its versatility, but one on one against a single engined fighter it was not in the position to run away from, I don't think it had much of a chance. One of the RAF's top night fighter pilots was shot down by an FW-190 in daylight.

There are cases but really exceptions that prove rules. Whatever you are in 4 x 20mm cannon and 4 MGs all firing on the same axis could spoil anyone's day. I read of one mosquito bomber evading a fw190 at altitude by a shallow dive. At high speed the mosquito had enough control to stop the FW getting a shot. If you have a 30MPH advantage and the enemy is 30 miles away it takes an hour to catch them. I don't know about an FW190 but a Spitfire couldn't run for 1 hr on full throttle.

Milosh · Jul 26, 2019

One had a different mind set if one flew day or night.

pbehn · Jul 26, 2019

MIflyer said:
One of the RAF's top night fighter pilots was shot down by an FW-190 in daylight.

Is that John Braham?

MIflyer · Jul 26, 2019

Yes, I believe it was Braham. And note that night fighters and intruders flew alone while day fighters almost never went out without a wingman. Two Mossies would have radically changed the equation for fighting an FW-190, but he was out doing a single plane attack. Despite all his combat time he would have had limited experience in using a combat formation.

"Screwball" Beurling was the type that liked going out by himself in daylight, but on Malta that probably was a necessity in many cases.

MIflyer · Jul 27, 2019

"Whatever you are in 4 x 20mm cannon and 4 MGs all firing on the same axis could spoil anyone's day ."

Now there's a thought! Flying heavy bomber escort in a B-25H. Sounds better than the B-40, anyway.

P-38 with Roll-Royce Merlins

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