P-51/Mustang Mk.IA (2 Viewers)

[MicroShket]

Hi, friends!
I'm very sorry if I chose the wrong section for this thread.
For several days I rack my brains trying to reach a consensus on Hispano armed Mustangs (P-51 and F-6A). Are all of them were sent to ETO&MTO? As I know, several reconnaissance groups used F-6 on CBI. Were they only F-6B and later versions of a reconnaissance Mustang?
In other words, Is that true, that there were not a single Hispano armed P-51 or F-6A on CBI?
Thank you.
Best regards,
MicroShket.

 

[drgondog]

Hi, friends!
I'm very sorry if I chose the wrong section for this thread.
For several days I rack my brains trying to reach a consensus on Hispano armed Mustangs (P-51 and F-6A). Are all of them were sent to ETO&MTO? As I know, several reconnaissance groups used F-6 on CBI. Were they only F-6B and later versions of a reconnaissance Mustang?
In other words, Is that true, that there were not a single Hispano armed P-51 or F-6A on CBI?
Thank you.
Best regards,
MicroShket.

The AAF retained 55 of the 150 NA-91 as (P-51-1NA, -2N then all F-6), the RAF took 93 as the Mustang IA and two were retained as XP-51B.

None of the AAF F-6 went to ETO, most if not all went to MTO as part of the 68 TRG (111TRS). Some may have been transferred 73TRG then to 10th PRG in the ETO.

I can not find a trace of an F-6 (P-51-1NA) from the NA-91 contract that went to CBI.

 

[MicroShket]

The AAF retained 55 of the 150 NA-91 as (P-51-1NA, -2N then all F-6), the RAF took 93 as the Mustang IA and two were retained as XP-51B.

None of the AAF F-6 went to ETO, most if not all went to MTO as part of the 68 TRG (111TRS). Some may have been transferred 73TRG then to 10th PRG in the ETO.

I can not find a trace of an F-6 (P-51-1NA) from the NA-91 contract that went to CBI.

Thank you very much for your answer!
I have serial numbers of AAF Mustangs and checked some of them, but all was in 111th TRS and 154th TRS.
Could you give the name of the source containig information about NA-91 contract, please (just can't check it myself now)? So, it means that one of them could be sent (on paper) to CBI, right? Or it is just my misunderstanding (my english is not perfect at all).

 

[drgondog]

Gruenhagen's "Mustang - The Story of the P-51 Fighter", Stars and Bars by Dr. Frank Olynyk and an on going data base of P-51 losses/serial numbers that I have been working on for 15 years

 

[nuuumannn]

If you're after a condensed history of the Allison engined Mustangs, Martyn Chorlton's Allison Engined P-51 Mustang (New Vanguard) is a nifty little reference at a very good price.

 

[Airframes]

I agree - a very useful little book.

 

[c1951]

I can say that at Renfrew aerodrome, Scotland, 18 October 1943 there was at least one F-6 Mustang being refurbished by Lockheed Overseas Aircraft Corporation. Possibly there were more

 

[MIflyer]

There is a ww2 video, "A Day with the A-36's" you should be able to find online that shows a P-51-1 or F-6 sitting at the A-36 base. Someone found evidence that the A-36 unit had acquired a few P-51-1 and used them for strafing targets where they needed the extra punch from those four 20MM guns. So you had some mixed combat formations of A-36A and P-51-1/F-6, which I think is just totally cool.

 

[c1951]

There is a ww2 video, "A Day with the A-36's" you should be able to find online that shows a P-51-1 or F-6 sitting at the A-36 base. Someone found evidence that the A-36 unit had acquired a few P-51-1 and used them for strafing targets where they needed the extra punch from those four 20MM guns. So you had some mixed combat formations of A-36A and P-51-1/F-6, which I think is just totally cool.

I know the RAF used them for low-level tactical reconnaissance Here's a picture of one at Renfrew
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/204917586

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mgqoBRXph4

 

[ColFord]

I know the RAF used them for low-level tactical reconnaissance Here's a picture of one at Renfrew
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/204917586

The photo you have linked to is of a USAAF NA-99 P-51A. The USAAF shipped a number of P-51A modified for the low level tactical fighter reconnaissance role, to be used in a similar way to those used by the RAF. The USAAF P-51As were used extensively in the lead up to D-Day building up the reconnaissance coverage of the areas where the US Army units would land for D-Day and the aras they were planned to operate in after D-Day. After D-Day they provided the direct Tac/R support to the US Army units operating in France, Belgium and then eventually into Germany. Most of the USAAF P-51A shipped to the UK for the Tac/R role were also modified before entering operational service in the UK with the addition of the Malcolm Hood mod and some RAF based camera mods - to take account of the Malcolm Hood.

The P-51As that were shipped to the UK for the RAF left the NAA factory in RAF camouflage and markings.

Just to update some of the fine detail since this thread was started years ago, research into both US and UK records has now confirmed that of the NA-91 P-51 Mustang/Mustang IA production, the US retained 58, the UK received - and accounted for - 92.

Also in terms of books, Bill Marshall's own book - in conjunction with the late Lowell Ford - on the development of the Mustang released a couple of years ago now and Matt Willis "Mustang - the Untold Story" which focusses on the early Allison engine models of the Mustang, provide two of the better, very well researched and accurate accounts on the early Mustangs.

 

[c1951]

The photo you have linked to is of a USAAF NA-99 P-51A. The USAAF shipped a number of P-51A modified for the low level tactical fighter reconnaissance role, to be used in a similar way to those used by the RAF. The USAAF P-51As were used extensively in the lead up to D-Day building up the reconnaissance coverage of the areas where the US Army units would land for D-Day and the aras they were planned to operate in after D-Day. After D-Day they provided the direct Tac/R support to the US Army units operating in France, Belgium and then eventually into Germany. Most of the USAAF P-51A shipped to the UK for the Tac/R role were also modified before entering operational service in the UK with the addition of the Malcolm Hood mod and some RAF based camera mods - to take account of the Malcolm Hood.

The P-51As that were shipped to the UK for the RAF left the NAA factory in RAF camouflage and markings.

Just to update some of the fine detail since this thread was started years ago, research into both US and UK records has now confirmed that of the NA-91 P-51 Mustang/Mustang IA production, the US retained 58, the UK received - and accounted for - 92.

Also in terms of books, Bill Marshall's own book - in conjunction with the late Lowell Ford - on the development of the Mustang released a couple of years ago now and Matt Willis "Mustang - the Untold Story" which focusses on the early Allison engine models of the Mustang, provide two of the better, very well researched and accurate accounts on the early Mustangs.

Somewhere I saw a picture of an RAF Mustang shot down on the French coast-it was flown by Raymond Pullin the helicopter pioneer, the Mustang was a 1A

 

[ColFord]

Somewhere I saw a picture of an RAF Mustang shot down on the French coast-it was flown by Raymond Pullin the helicopter pioneer, the Mustang was a 1A

The photo is of the NA-73 Mustang I flown by P/O R Pullin. Details are:

On 14 August 1942, AG-524 HB-B of No.239 Squadron Royal Air Force piloted by Pilot Officer Raymond Aubrey Pullin took off at 10.45 hrs in company with AG-472 piloted by Flight Lieutenant C Oakes for a Rhubarb sortie to the Blankenberge-Brugge area of Belgium. They met intense accurate light and medium flak at the coast from Kreigsmarine flak units as they were exiting the operational area. The Mustang flown by P/O Pullin was hit by the flak and damaged, forcing him to make a forced landing in a field near Wissenkerke in Zeeland province in the Netherlands. P/O Pullin was captured, made a PoW and ended up in Stalag Luft III. The wreckage of HB-B was photographed by Luftwaffe Intelligence and then ended up at the Beutepark 5 der Luftwaffe at Paris Nanterre, where it was displayed with other Allied aircraft.

 

[ColFord]

And please excuse my belated brain fade. Renfrew is the district adjacent to what is now Glasgow International Airport that during WW2 was Abbotsinch. That was were many of the aircraft arriving by ship from the USA to the UK were unloaded from ships on the Clyde, then transported accross to a facility run by Lockheed Aircraft Services where they were reassembled, test flown and then picked up from by pilots and ferried to their next destination. Lockheed had a 'sister' location down at Speke that performed the same services for crated or disassembled aircraft arriving in to the port of Liverpool. There were a couple of other aviation works companies who also had a presence at Abbotsinch, along with a number of RAF and RN FAA units based there at various times - up to early 1942 it had a joint RAF/RN FAA torpedo training unit.

 

[c1951]

And please excuse my belated brain fade. Renfrew is the district adjacent to what is now Glasgow International Airport that during WW2 was Abbotsinch. That was were many of the aircraft arriving by ship from the USA to the UK were unloaded from ships on the Clyde, then transported accross to a facility run by Lockheed Aircraft Services where they were reassembled, test flown and then picked up from by pilots and ferried to their next destination. Lockheed had a 'sister' location down at Speke that performed the same services for crated or disassembled aircraft arriving in to the port of Liverpool. There were a couple of other aviation works companies who also had a presence at Abbotsinch, along with a number of RAF and RN FAA units based there at various times - up to early 1942 it had a joint RAF/RN FAA torpedo training unit.

Renfrew was the original Glasgow Airport, during the war aircraft were delivered there from the Glasgow docks, particularly King George V. In addition to Speke and Renfrew Lockheed Overseas Aircraft Corporation had Longford Lodge in Northern Ireland. In addition to aircraft carrier aircraft deliveries aeroplanes were delivered by tanker, the deck used Meccano planking on the deck and the aircraft were fixed to that. Blackburn, Airwork and Lockeed were the main contractors at Renfrew, many a Mustang and some P-61s came through. Winkle Brown flew a Zero from Renfrew. 2000 aircraft were assembled by Lockheed in Scotland at Abbotsinch and Renfrew. King George V dock was used by the USS Wasp for Bowery and Calendar and Hurricanes were transported from there to Russia

 

[drgondog]

Also in terms of books, Bill Marshall's own book - in conjunction with the late Lowell Ford - on the development of the Mustang released a couple of years ago now and Matt Willis "Mustang - the Untold Story" which focusses on the early Allison engine models of the Mustang, provide two of the better, very well researched and accurate accounts on the early Mustangs.

Colin is being modest - he was a major contributor in my book. Perhaps that is why it was well researched.

 

[SaparotRob]

And a hoot too. I have my copy.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

P-51/Mustang Ia, 41-37320 to 37469/FD418 to 567
58 to USA: 41-37320 to 37339/FD418 to 437, 41-37352 to 37371/FD450 to 469, 41-37412 to 37429/FD510 to 527
41-41352 and 37421 became XP-51B, 41-37426 to USN

92 to Britain: 41-37340 to 37351/FD438 to 449, 41-37372 to 37411/FD470 to 509, 41-37430 to 37469/FD528 to 567

By the way the USAAF Delivery Logs include the serial number of the engines.

If I read the USAAF aircraft cards correctly, shipped overseas, 41-
37322, 37326, 37328, 37329, 37331, 37333, 37336, 37338, 37353, 37354, 37356, 37361 to 37368, 37370, 37371, 37412 to 37420, 37422, 37424, 37425, 37428, 37429, allocation dated January/February 1943 to WILDFLOWER = 8AF Europe, but to Glen A = Oran Algeria 12AF MTO, loss reports generally filed by DUKO = Italy 12AF

The cards do not record any conversions to F-6.

 

[c1951]

P-51/Mustang Ia, 41-37320 to 37469/FD418 to 567
58 to USA: 41-37320 to 37339/FD418 to 437, 41-37352 to 37371/FD450 to 469, 41-37412 to 37429/FD510 to 527
41-41352 and 37421 became XP-51B, 41-37426 to USN

92 to Britain: 41-37340 to 37351/FD438 to 449, 41-37372 to 37411/FD470 to 509, 41-37430 to 37469/FD528 to 567

By the way the USAAF Delivery Logs include the serial number of the engines.

If I read the USAAF aircraft cards correctly, shipped overseas, 41-
37322, 37326, 37328, 37329, 37331, 37333, 37336, 37338, 37353, 37354, 37356, 37361 to 37368, 37370, 37371, 37412 to 37420, 37422, 37424, 37425, 37428, 37429, allocation dated January/February 1943 to WILDFLOWER = 8AF Europe, but to Glen A = Oran Algeria 12AF MTO, loss reports generally filed by DUKO = Italy 12AF

The cards do not record any conversions to F-6.

Thanks for posting- thats brilliant-Some of the Renfrew Mustangs have no armament and it looks like a camera bay behind the cockpit in one, the serials aren't visible probably the pictures were taken before final assembly.

 

[ColFord]

The cards do not record any conversions to F-6.

USAAF for their Tac/R & Photo/R conversions of the standard NA-91 P-51, will list as either P-51-NA-1 or P-51-NA-2, depending on the nature of modification and who conducted the modification. The F-6 designation was only briefly applied to the NA-91 P-51 modified by the USAAF - about a month - when the modification was first approved, but then rescinded and replaced by the other two designations. In early 1945 (working from memory here) the F-6 designation was reapplied to those aircraft retrospectively - most if not all had by then been retired from active service in ETO where they were primarily used.

Thanks for posting- thats brilliant-Some of the Renfrew Mustangs have no armament and it looks like a camera bay behind the cockpit in one, the serials aren't visible probably the pictures were taken before final assembly.

I've had a look at the other photos in the series you linked to in the previous post. Photos were taken at Renfrew on 18 October 1943. Renfrew underwent a series of major works from late 1942 into mid-1943 to improve the runways and facilities there. After that an Aircraft Reception Depot was set up, primarily for the acceptance of arriving aircraft intended for the USAAF, arriving by sea or by air after ferry flight across the Atlantic. Included reassembly of aircraft delivered by sea and removal of ferry equipment for aircraft arriving by air. The Air Ministry consolidated its aircraft arrivals across to Abbotsinch.

The aircraft shown in the photos are all NA-99 P-51As, all intended for the Tactical Fighter Reconnaissance units the USAAF was setting up in the UK. Type confirmed by serial numbers and parts of serial numbers shown in a number of the photos, and the distinctive identification characteristics of the P-51A vs other P-51 series aircraft. In a number of the photos the ends of the gun barrel jackets/muzzles are evident in their cut outs in the wing leading edges. After reassembly and test flying at Renfrew, they would have been ferried to one of the USAAF Air Depots/Modification Centres established in the UK for installation of operational equipment, implementation of any theatre or unit specific operational modifications required - in this case most if not all the USAAF P-51As shipped to the UK received the Malcolm Hood mod due to the nature of their role - given final checks and then allocated out to their eventual operating unit. Those that received the Malcolm Hood mod also need modifications to the oblique camera installation behind the cockpit - behind the pilot's head, as the change to the Malcolm Hood meant the NAA/USAAF designed oblique camera mount no longer fitted or was usable with the new hood.