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The F8U was several years ahead of the F4H in the development / deployment process and the F4 was intended to extend the carrier's reach in both range and performance beyond what the F8 could do. The F8 was a contemporary of the F100 and F101 in the J57 family, while the F4H was brethren to the F104 and the A3J in the J79 clan.I was under the impression that the decision to use the F8U for close in combat was more of a decision based on the limits of the F4H? Regardless, I remember being told that the idea was to have the F4H's used (even in that case) to blow away a whole bunch of aircraft; then let the F8U's go in with their missiles and guns and cut-apart whatever was left?
That is in fact exactly the scenario for fleet defense against a saturation attack by standoff equipped high speed bombers. In the theoretical battle scenarios of the 1950s there was a sort of arms race going on between standoff range and speed vs interceptor speed, range, and search capability. The interceptors quickly got out to ranges beyond surface radar support, and had to be able to function without it, a concept entirely alien to the SAGE environment.I remember being told that the idea was to have the F4H's used (even in that case) to blow away a whole bunch of aircraft; then let the F8U's go in with their missiles and guns and cut-apart whatever was left?
Yup, they call that reverse engineering, and most nations with technological shortcomings get pretty good at it.Like how if I didn't know the exact details how something worked but if I knew that "if I do this, then that and this -- this happens?"
Back in my day, crews tended to take the data link with "a grain of salt", viewing it as a troubled technology. Though it was supposed to replace voice communication, it was still an emitter, subject to analysis, replication, disruption, and deceit by the opposition.there was the USC-2 Datalink, which allowed the ability to remotely signal and maneuver an aircraft into a firing position
No, there's no "stealth value" in jamming. That's like flashing a beacon and sounding a siren. You suppress the the airliner's transponder by slaving a signal to it, which cancels it out at the ground radar site. Since you (the bomber) are closer to the radar site, your transponder replies are both earlier and stronger than the airliner's, whose weaker signal, partially suppressed by your out of phase aping signal, is rejected by the radar's discriminator and yours is displayed on the scope. Neat trick, huh? A devious society creates devious minds which conjure up devious ways of deceiving simple minded westerners.So they were jamming the airliner, then duplicating it and rebroadcasting it as their own?
Of course, I just wasn't certain what the policy of the Defense Department & the Department of the Navy, and the CNO & NAVAIR, and the policies of the Fleet & Battlegroup Commands.The F8U was several years ahead of the F4H in the development / deployment process
The F8 was a contemporary of the F100 and F101 in the J57 family, while the F4H was brethren to the F104 and the A3J in the J79 clan.
Basically it consists of waves of defense, though for offense, they had similar ideas actually involving the two aircraft.That is in fact exactly the scenario for fleet defense against a saturation attack by standoff equipped high speed bombers.
Of course, the USAF controlled the territory it operated in so that wasn't as big a deal in theory (unless a radar site malfunctioned)In the theoretical battle scenarios of the 1950s there was a sort of arms race going on between standoff range and speed vs interceptor speed, range, and search capability. The interceptors quickly got out to ranges beyond surface radar support, and had to be able to function without it, a concept entirely alien to the SAGE environment.
It's logical thinking, plus I tend to think that way. I notice patterns and string them together. I of course ask others to make sure my conclusions were right...Yup, they call that reverse engineering, and most nations with technological shortcomings get pretty good at it.
I was thinking more about suppression, though jamming is a usual way to suppress signals. In this case, the idea was to duplicate the signal and place yourself in such a location that your signal not only gets there and back first, but actually cancels the others out.No, there's no "stealth value" in jamming. That's like flashing a beacon and sounding a siren.
I never thought of it that way -- though it definitely describes a great deal of certain societies. Also shows the reason to create a non-devious society.A devious society creates devious minds which conjure up devious ways of deceiving simple minded westerners.
Do you ever wonder how people so advanced in their thinking they can come up with stuff like jet engines, fire control radar, angled carrier decks, optical landing systems, steam catapults, hydraulic arresting gear, etc, etc, etc,...ad infinitum, before anybody else, yet can't master such basic stuff as gaskets that don't leak and reliable generators, voltage regulators and aircraft and automotive electrical systems?
Cheers,
Wes
Is that why the F3H's had a beam-emitter separate from the radar to guide missiles (the AAM-N-2 was a radar-beam rider, and was slaved to the optical sight).
I'm curious why they objected to this limit in WWII but not after?[quoteSo until the advent of single radar TWS, as a general rule, if you had one FCR radar on board (most fighters had one FCR, and it was often a fight to find the space and weight for that one) you could either be in a search mode or in a track mode, but not both at the same time.
Which means it would be rapidly switching from search to track and back and forth at such an incredibly fast rate that to the human brain it would seem like it was all happening simultaneously.
You end up divvying up power to produce the multiple beams?
That's actually a good point.XBe02Drvr said:Do you ever wonder how people so advanced in their thinking they can come up with stuff like jet engines, fire control radar, angled carrier decks, optical landing systems, steam catapults, hydraulic arresting gear, etc, etc, etc,...ad infinitum, before anybody else, yet can't master such basic stuff as gaskets that don't leak and reliable generators, voltage regulators and aircraft and automotive electrical systems?
That's interestingI don't know. I have no first hand exposure to the AAM-2-N or its radar. However, spurred by this question in an attempt to research and at least familiarize myself with this system I found a lot of conflicting information.
Hmmm...I did not find mention of a separate emitter for the "beam rider", but I did find mention of a modified APG-51B to provide illumination. Illumination is used with a semi-active missile.
Are those similar to the 4 antennae on the RIM-8?Looking at pictures of the missile I do not see rear facing antennas, which would probably be seen with a beam rider.
I'm not sure, the only guess I can think of would be basically to allow one to continue searching for other targets while guiding the missile?In either event, a "modified" APG-51B could have provided either beam riding or illumination. Boresight it (the APG-51) with the visual sight, keep the visual sight on the target, and the energy should provide either beam or illumination. And if this was not the way it was done, if there was indeed a separate emitter for the missile, the why not slave the separate missile emitter to the track of the APG-51?
Sparrow Missile Family by Andreas ParschDo you have any sources for details of the AAM-2-N system? Now that you have brought it up I would certainly like to fill in some missing information in my own thoughts on the system.
I was just curious why they were worried about the gun-laying radar losing situational awareness when in tracking mode being a big deal with the P-61, and rectified with the F3D using multiple radars, and then not being a big deal after. It turns out they just used a bunch of radars anyway but simply made them smaller. RWR's also probably helped.I am afraid I don't understand what you are asking here.
It sounds almost like a little brain controlling the AESA...Advanced cognitive systems
Are those similar to the 4 antennae on the RIM-8?
I'm not sure, the only guess I can think of would be basically to allow one to continue searching for other targets while guiding the missile?
Sparrow Missile Family by Andreas Parsch
YupTalos I am on a little more solid ground with, having had some, if limited, first hand exposure to that system. More importantly I worked with several engineers and technicians who were deeply involved with that system, and we had many discussions touching on it.
I assume you are talking about the 4 little antennas that are on the front of the missile around the perimeter?
Do the antennae protrude out of tiny little fairings/blisters? It is very hard to find an image without the booster stage.Those antennas are not used in the beam riding part of flight, but rather those are the antennas for the final phase of flight, which is a semi active phase. The beam riding antenna is at the back of the missile.
Was this from the outset or early on in the missile's development/operational life?At least for the non-nuclear version the missile starts out as a beam rider. Then as it closes on the target it transitions to a semi-active mode of operation.
That makes enough sense -- the spotlight widens as you go further and further away from it.Beam riding simply does not give the accuracy required to intercept a maneuvering target at range.
That's true -- a professor I had (Criminal justice) was a homicide detective, but he also was USAF reserve said almost the same thing except he said "nuclear war", and followed it up with "you can't talk about nuclear-war anymore" and I'm not sure if I said it or not, but my thoughts were basically "well, you can -- but people will think horribly of it"As was the case with several nuclear equipped missiles, extra accuracy was deemed unnecessary on the nuke version, so you don't see those 4 little antennas on that model, it is a beam rider all the way. What is the old saying? "Close" is good enough with horse shoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Well that clarified one thing...Possible. But I still find no mention of a separate beam riding emitter in the admittedly limited resources I have looked at.
Accuracy at long range?So the Sparrow 1 was a beam rider, but it was ineffective so it was short lived. Incidentally, RF beam riding missiles have always faced some hurtles, that is why it is not a popular technique.
Like what?[/quote]The Sparrow 2 was an active seeker, but never got much beyond a paper design and PDR. Active seekers are also a pain for some applications.
Do the antennae protrude out of tiny little fairings/blisters? It is very hard to find an image without the booster stage.
Was this from the outset or early on in the missile's development/operational life?
What function do the antennae serve? I was told it was some kind of interferometer...
Accuracy at long range?
Like what?
But we seem to have gotten pretty far afield of anything related to the P-61T!
Uhh uhh! That's stretching it, my friend. There's no way you could stuff an equivalent to the F4's radar into the slender nose of the -3 Crusader. It's all about weight, volume, antenna diameter, and pilot workload. Antenna gain is one of the most important factors in radar range performance, and here, SIZE MATTERS. You couldn't put a dish the size of the F4's on the snout of the -3 without affecting supersonic performance and engine inlet air flow. Ever notice how long the schnozzola on the F4 is? It's all radar set, from the instrument panel bulkhead forward. On the E it's even longer, because they stuff an ammo drum in there as well. Now imagine trying to tack that on the nose of a -3.The XF8U-3 had much of the agility of the F8U-2, but with greater speed, longer overall range, and similar radar to the F4H
Actually, they could. They did it by moving the antenna further back in the nose where the diameter was thicker; then moving much of the electronic boxes into various parts of the fuselage.Uhh uhh! That's stretching it, my friend. There's no way you could stuff an equivalent to the F4's radar into the slender nose of the -3 Crusader.
Size always matters -- with radar, and with women (I decided to remove some of the funnier stuff for fear of getting in trouble)SIZE MATTERS
The F-4E's nose is of the same diameter only at at the back, at the section where the radar is joined, it's actually narrower as the A/N APQ-120 is of better performance despite the size reduction. The gun occupies the area behind the radar.On the E it's even longer, because they stuff an ammo drum in there as well. Now imagine trying to tack that on the nose of a -3.
The radar display could be heads-down, much the F-106, or heads-up. It basically displayed the radar data on the reflector site (it wasn't like a modern HUD that displayed airspeed/mach, heading, altitude), so one could avoid having to look down all the time. Also the radar computed the vectors and displayed a steering dot on the display for the pilot to maneuver it into position. They might have added additional automation by the time the aircraft entered operational service, but test-pilots (admittedly, they did work for Vought) seemed to be satisfied that it could be done by all Naval Aviators.Now imagine trying to operate that thing and fly the airplane at the same time. When you're in search mode, your eyes have to be riveted to that scope, because when the beam sweeps across a target, it makes a very small, very short-lived blip. If your eyes happen to be checking your flight instruments, your leader, or your wingman, you're going to miss it. The greater the range, the fainter and briefer the blip. If you're high Mach outbound and your target is likewise inbound, and your radar is doing its standard azimuth-elevation scan, you could be tens of miles closer to each other before your scan blips him again.
The USN was mostly motivated by the twin-crew consideration over performance.No, I think they made the right choice in buying the F4H.
According to Tommy H. Thomason's book on the XF8U-3 (ISBN-13: 978-0984611409), the proposal called for replacing the AN/APQ-50 with the A/N APQ-72 (same as the F4H). Another source states the plan was to use a radar called the A/N APQ-74
The radar display could be heads-down, much the F-106, or heads-up. It basically displayed the radar data on the reflector site (it wasn't like a modern HUD that displayed airspeed/mach, heading, altitude), so one could avoid having to look down all the time. Also the radar computed the vectors and displayed a steering dot on the display for the pilot to maneuver it into position. They might have added additional automation by the time the aircraft entered operational service, but test-pilots (admittedly, they did work for Vought) seemed to be satisfied that it could be done by all Naval Aviators.
The USN was mostly motivated by the twin-crew consideration over performance.
During the three years I worked with the Phantom RAG squadron, there were 3 or 4 single engine landings a year, mostly due to flameouts associated with departures from controlled flight resulting from aggressive young nuggets cranking their turns a little too tight. Departures were pretty common in ACM training, and air relights didn't always work. With the F8U-3, each one of those would have been a splash.And then there is the single vs twin engine situation. The Board apparently looked at accident rates and saw that twins had a much lower engine related accident rate, like one third.
This might be a question that sounds bizarre, but how is it the F-106 managed to do almost as good as the F4H with a 24" radome?The way I understood it was they both could fit the APQ-50, but fitting the -72 was far easier for the F4H.
The APQ-50 just came up short with regards to range. Westinghouse determined that in order to get the required range the antenna size would have to grow from 24 inches to 32 inches (this equals about 2.6 dB of increased EIRP for the transmitter and about 2.6 dB more antenna gain for the receiver). The APQ-50 refitted with the 32 inch antenna is the APQ-72. To fit the APQ-72 to the F4H required a major rework of the radome, but relatively little to the frame structure itself.
All that increased range by 50%?The House Armed Services Committee agreed to fund new Navy fighter production for FY59, but only for a single new fighter. The Navy Air Board, on Dec 1, 1958, selected the F4H, in part because field testing had shown that even in a 1v1 situation a dedicated RIO would often see the radar target at up to 50% greater range than a pilot alone. He simply had more time to watch the search screen.
This might be a question that sounds bizarre, but how is it the F-106 managed to do almost as good as the F4H with a 24" radome?
All that increased range by 50%?
My radar trainer had an adjustment for target return intensity which at any particular range would adjust anywhere between the weakest and the strongest return the real radar should be able to achieve on a fighter size target.Additionally, there is a skill or art to watching and integrating the data from a radar screen. You really do get better with practice.
Gentlemen, excellent discussion and information.
Although also off-topic I always wondered about the maximum radar pulse power emission of fighter aircraft. Earlier ai-radars like the scr-720 had a peak power output in the region of 200 kW and ai radars of the 1950s and 1960s had even much more. Today's ai-radar outputs are described with normally less than 10 kW. I am aware that radar designers try to minimize the output power because of stealth but regarding the huge difference - is power output today measured in the same way as in earlier decades?