Pearl Harbor, 7th December 1939.....

Night Fighter Nut · Jan 3, 2010

This is great. You learn so much when you throw out a hypothetical question.

Shinpachi · Jan 3, 2010

The 11th of February 1940 was glorious 2600th anniversary of the Empire but the Japanese people were tired of the long war in China and domestic recession.

To encourage people, the government held a grand ceremony on the 10th of November but another new war would have been too much for the ceremony. War in China was enough for them.

Wayne Little · Jan 4, 2010

Night Fighter Nut said:
That is correct. The main torpedo plane, D3A1 Val, that attacked Pear Harbor didn't go into service until 1940 and the Zero was only just starting to see service in March '39... Source: Rand McNally Encyclopedia of Military Aircraft.

Hey Night Fighter Nut, just want to correct your info...your source doesn't sound right for Zero service in 39.

The A6M is universally known as the Zero from its Japanese Navy type designation Type 0 Carrier Fighter, taken from the last digit of the Imperial year 2600 (1940). when it entered service.
First operational Zero was the A6M2 Model 11 used in China in 1940, the Pearl Harbor Zero was the A6M2 Model 21.

The Aichi D3A1 Model 11 Val Type 99 'Val' was a Dive Bomber , it's designation type was also taken from the last digit of the Imperial year 2599 (1939). It was ordered by the Japanese Navy in Dec 1939, it entered service in 1940 and was pretty much unchanged at Pearl Harbor

The Nakajima B5N Type 97 Carrier Attack Bomber "Kate" was the standard torpedo bomber of the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) for much of WWII. First flew in 1937, (Imperial year 2597) and ordered into production soon after as the B5N1, the Pearl Harbor version was the B5N2.

Cheers Wayne

Night Fighter Nut · Jan 4, 2010

Wayne Little said:
Hey Night Fighter Nut, just want to correct your info...your source doesn't sound right for Zero service in 39....Cheers Wayne

Thanks Wayne, it's possible. I find that many books are not always right depending on the extent of research done by the writer. Can you point me in the right direction so as to find accurate information?

Njaco · Jan 5, 2010

If it was soo easy as pointing to correct info it would'nt be so fun to research!!

Night Fighter Nut · Jan 6, 2010

Njaco said:
If it was soo easy as pointing to correct info it would'nt be so fun to research!!

I would love to research all this info. Travel to the different places and meet those who were actually there. Some of my info comes from the Arizona memorial in Hawaii and some from the old vets who were still alive. I was stationed in Hawaii for three years and you hear about Pearl Harbor more often because of its proximity. Our barracks still had the bullet holes in it. I just find that the more you learn, the less you know and I would be the first to admit I don't know everything. Should someone have new information that I don't know, tell me where you found it and I will look it up and be eternally greatful.

Shinpachi · Jan 6, 2010

How are you, Night Fighter Nut?
I recommend you "Osprey Aviation Elite" or Bunrindo's "Famous Airplanes of the World(Japanese language)" but it would be quite a long way for you to be competitive with Wayne. He knows about the Japanese aircrafts better than the Japanese. I have already given up and go on my way

Wayne Little · Jan 7, 2010

Night Fighter Nut said:
I would love to research all this info. Travel to the different places and meet those who were actually there. Some of my info comes from the Arizona memorial in Hawaii and some from the old vets who were still alive. I was stationed in Hawaii for three years and you hear about Pearl Harbor more often because of its proximity. Our barracks still had the bullet holes in it. I just find that the more you learn, the less you know and I would be the first to admit I don't know everything. Should someone have new information that I don't know, tell me where you found it and I will look it up and be eternally greatful.

Will post some stuff on the weekend for you...

Shinpachi said:
How are you, Night Fighter Nut?
I recommend you "Osprey Aviation Elite" or Bunrindo's "Famous Airplanes of the World(Japanese language)" but it would be quite a long way for you to be competitive with Wayne. He knows about the Japanese aircrafts better than the Japanese. I have already given up and go on my way

.....

You are too kind, Domo Arigato Shinpachi san

Wayne Little · Jan 10, 2010

Here ya go NFN, Couple of books that may help....David Aiken, Pearl Harbor authority helped with info in the Osprey book.

and try this link....

PEARL HARBOR HISTORY ASSOCIATES, INC.

Shinpachi · Jan 10, 2010

David Aiken
He has been a friend of mine since 2004 but I didn't know he is such a great writer

Thanks for your information, Wayne.

Wayne Little · Jan 10, 2010

Shinpachi said:
David Aiken
He has been a friend of mine since 2004 but I didn't know he is such a great writer
Thanks for your information, Wayne.

No worries, he's been involved in a few writing projects...had correspondence with him myself periodically!

Njaco · Jan 10, 2010

I have that book by H.P. Wilmott. A must have for any Pearl Harbour armchair historian. Fantastic book!

Freebird · Jan 10, 2010

GrauGeist said:
Matter of fact, in '39, the Japanese were in Manchuria pushing up against the eastern borders of Soviet Russia. The Japanese were anticipating a war with Russia, not the U.S. at that time. The non-aggression pact between Germany and Russia plus the U.S. export restrictions changed alot of things...

Actually, it was the severe thrashing that Zhukov gave the Kwangtung Army in 1939 that was the main reason for the change in opinion, it was realized that a war with the Soviets would be a meat-grinder

Night Fighter Nut · Jan 13, 2010

Thanks for showing that book Wayne. I agree with Shinpachi san. You are very knowledgable when it comes to aircraft.

Night Fighter Nut · Jan 14, 2010

To carry this further, now we know that the face of the Pacific war would have been drastically different if Pearl was invated in '39. Just for the sake of discussion and to carry this a little further before this thread is dead. What if Japan, tired of waring with China and looking for easier prey to show a measure of success for its people, mean while wanting to expand its borders, Pulls out of China and decides to start taking islands? Starting with Hawaii in '39. What would that really look like? My guess would be that they would have to physically take and occupy the Hawaiian islands. Then where would the counter attacks come from and what would they look like? Just for the sake of discussion.

syscom3 · Jan 14, 2010

Night Fighter Nut said:
.... now we know that the face of the Pacific war .......

Farce?

You think the war in the Pacific was a farce?

parsifal · Jan 14, 2010

Sys

I dont think he was meaning "farce". He said "face", which has a different meaning

Freebird · Jan 15, 2010

Night Fighter Nut said:
To carry this further, now we know that the face of the Pacific war would have been drastically different if Pearl was invated in '39. Just for the sake of discussion and to carry this a little further before this thread is dead. What if Japan, tired of waring with China and looking for easier prey to show a measure of success for its people, mean while wanting to expand its borders, Pulls out of China and decides to start taking islands? Starting with Hawaii in '39.

Hawaii would not be the first, Hawaii is worth nothing to Japan.

Now in July 1940, they could take Indonesia over "for protection" or something like that.

syscom3 · Jan 15, 2010

freebird said:
Hawaii would not be the first, Hawaii is worth nothing to Japan.

Now in July 1940, they could take Indonesia over "for protection" or something like that.

Exactly. they needed the oil and mineral resources of SE Asia as fast as possible.

Remember though, the Japanese needed to build up their staging bases in Vietnam as soon as possible. These were needed to attack Malaya and the NEI.

parsifal · Jan 16, 2010

In 1939, the US had an army of about 100000 an air force that was moribund and a navy lacking in many respects. If I were the Japanese and I had made the decision to attack the US, I would do so by a complete pullout of China to begin with, yielding an army in excess of 30 divisions. This would gurantee access to far eastern oil until after the attack on the US. Then I would invadde both Hawaii (virtually undefended in 1939, as well as most of the west coast of the US. The Jap[anese demonstrated in 1941 that they had the ability to land up to 10 divisions simultaneously, which was not significantly changed from 1939. They also demonstrated in China and Malaya of their ability to conduct rapid advances over vast distances. With 10 divisions in the first wave, supported by at least another 20 behind thatm the Japanese might be able to conquer half the US without significant opposition from the US forces. After that it becomes difficult to determine the outcome......

Pearl Harbor, 7th December 1939.....

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