Planes vs Trains

[Conslaw]

I've always been amazed at how well Germany managed to keep a functioning railroad system despite overwhelming Allied air superiority. Youtube is full of videos of Allied fighters disabling locomotives, often with violent steam explosions. I say this from the point of view of an American who had to sit on a train for hours because the train hit a car. Does anyone have any information about how the Germans managed to fix train tracks and especially stuck or derailed trains due to locomotive busting? What kind of equipment did it take to clear a train whose locomotive has been busted? How long did it take to repair train tracks broken by bombs or sabotage? What kind of resources were dedicated to railroad repair? Statistics?

 

[Admiral Beez]

AIUI, tracks are difficult to destroy or significantly damage. So you push any critically damaged locomotive and rolling stock off the tracks, repair the rails and get moving.

 

[Conslaw]

AIUI, tracks are difficult to destroy or significantly damage. So you push any critically damaged locomotive and rolling stock off the tracks, repair the rails and get moving.

Yeah but how long does it take to get the equipment there that could do it? How much equipment did they have to work with. P-47s in one day claimed 43 locomotives destroyed.

 

[Shortround6]

Tracks are hard to hit. Once hit they are not that hard to damage (talking bombs, not mg bullets). However plain track is not hard to repair/replace with enough manpower. Using light rail and not being too careful with alignment the US railroads could lay a number of miles in one day in the 1860s. I believe the record is just over 10 miles in one day? There was a reason General Sherman had his men heat the rails on bonfires and then twist them around trees rather than just pull them up and toss them to the side.
Filling bomb craters required a few dozen men with shovels. A few RR cars of gravel/fill would help.
Bridges, embankments, cuts, tunnels and junctions require a lot more work.
Depending on damage RR cars could either be abandoned or hauled back the shops. Some locomotives even got replacement boilers.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The trick is to hit bridges, like this one somewhere in Nazi-held Europe. Bonus points if the locomotive crashes into the crevasse. Such accurate timing suggest partisans rather than Thunderbolts.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Some info and maps here.

Railways in War - Part 3 - Railways to and from the Great War battlefield - Rolly Martin Country

As you can see, even if you kill a dozen locomotives and damage some track, there's a spider web of alternative tracks for the Germans to use. Many smaller sub-lines are likely not shown in these larger scale maps.

 

[fubar57]

Air strike of P-47 fighter-bombers from the American 9th Air Fleet, Mosell River, Germany, 1944. The Day After D-Day | Military Aviation | Air & Space Magazine

The trick is to hit bridges, like this one somewhere in Nazi-held Europe. Bonus points if the locomotive crashes into the crevasse. Such accurate timing suggest partisans rather than Thunderbolts.

View attachment 578880

 

[SaparotRob]

This I can answer.
When a train hits a car, various law enforcement agencies are involved. FRA, MTA (on my railroad) county police, state police as well as emt's on scene. The railroad also dispatches MOW and MOE employees to ascertain whether track, third rail or the train itself are safe for operation. AFTER being released by Federal and State agency investigators, railroad personnel do their thing. When everything is okayed the train is released.
When it's war and you're under constant attack, and you really really need to move troops and material, those procedures are probably "expedited".

 

[Greyman]

I was also very surprised how quickly most of these 'destroyed' train engines could be repaired and back in use. For the life of me I can't find it now (search ongoing) but I have a report somewhere on the average repair times for engines disabled by:

• .5-in Browning
• 20-mm Hispano
• 40-mm Vickers (AP)
• 40-mm Vickers (HE)
• 3-inch RP (25-lb AP)
• 3-inch RP (60-lb SAP)

Take the following with a huge grain of salt as I'm going off memory, but it was generally something like:

- Browning: a few hours to a couple of days​

- Hispano & Vickers HE: 1-4 days​

- Vickers AP: 5-10 days​

- RP (AP): 1-4 weeks​

- RP (SAP): 1-7 weeks, if repaired at all​

I'll keep looking so I can quote the figures properly ...

 

[Greyman]

Also, as someone who knows next to nothing about trains - this was a big eye-opener for me:

 

[SaparotRob]

Wow that was great!! Now retired, I got a perverse joy out watching people trying to wreck a train.

 

[Koopernic]

I've always been amazed at how well Germany managed to keep a functioning railroad system despite overwhelming Allied air superiority. Youtube is full of videos of Allied fighters disabling locomotives, often with violent steam explosions. I say this from the point of view of an American who had to sit on a train for hours because the train hit a car. Does anyone have any information about how the Germans managed to fix train tracks and especially stuck or derailed trains due to locomotive busting? What kind of equipment did it take to clear a train whose locomotive has been busted? How long did it take to repair train tracks broken by bombs or sabotage? What kind of resources were dedicated to railroad repair? Statistics?

The German authorities organised a large number of appropriately equipped teams to quickly repair tracks. I'm not rail expert but I don't think tracks are hard to repair or bridges hard to repair, everything seems to go so slow these days. The problem would have been attacks on bridges and viaducts but the more vulnerable ones would have been defended and even they might have been repairable with temporary steal truss bridges.

I don't think this became a serious problem until some weeks after the D-Day landings, after that allied fighter bombers could attack at low level over Germany itself.

Germany was highly dependant on her rail infrastructure since without oil she could not operate a large fleet of cars and trucks and coal fired locomotives were highly efficient (there was a coal shortage as well). Germany obviously had some fantastic cars and tricks but I know that horse drawn carriages might still transport goods from railway to a home or small business.

Obviously trains could be moved at night and were thus immune from direct attack.

Henschel made condenser locomotives that did not emit any steam. The lack of steam clouds made them much harder to spot from the air. They were also useful in the expanses of Russia because when German locomotives were modified for the Russian gauges it was found that the Russian watering stops were too far apart for German locomotives.

 

[Koopernic]

The trick is to hit bridges, like this one somewhere in Nazi-held Europe. Bonus points if the locomotive crashes into the crevasse. Such accurate timing suggest partisans rather than Thunderbolts.

View attachment 578880

I think bridge wrecking was usually assigned to B26's or medium bombers. A formation release at 8000 to 10000ft.

 

[MikeMeech]

Obviously trains could be moved at night and were thus immune from direct attack.

Hi

Why do you think this was so? After D-Day night attacks by intruder Mosquitos on the rail system were common, for example between June-July 1944 the book '2 Group RAF' by Bowyer, on p.379 mentions that:

"At night 11,000 500 lb. bombs were dropped and 400,000 rounds of ammunition fired. But it was difficult to assess results even by the light of flares although it was reckoned that 212 trains were hit. Sixteen lengths of track were shot up, over 120 road convoys strafed and at least 118 vehicles left blazing. Twenty-eight bridges were variously damaged for a total loss of 33 aircraft over two months. Nightly the Mosquito harassment continued with penetrations from the battlefront to the Loire and beyond in search of rail movement. Operations were flown around Paris, Amiens and Abbeville in search of trains, and attention began to be given to the Seine crossing points."

Also at night Bomber Command would attack rail junctions and yards, which would destroy or damage rail trucks and locomotives, this was all in addition to the day time attacks. All these and the previously mentioned direct attacks against 'moving trains' are well documented as air missions.

Mike

 

[GrauGeist]

"Obviously trains could be moved at night and were thus immune from direct attack."
Why do you think this was so? After D-Day night attacks by intruder Mosquitos on the rail system were common, for example between June-July 1944 the book '2 Group RAF' by Bowyer, on p.379 mentions that:...

Because a blacked-out train on the move is nearly impossible to spot from the air unless someone was careless and left on a light or it was a moonlit evening during winter.

 

[Greyman]

Well the RAF were at it anyway. The reason why 40-mm Vickers was in the report I mentioned above is because Hurricane IV squadrons were out on moonlit nights attacking trains, barges and small coastal vessels.

 

[Milosh]

Because a blacked-out train on the move is nearly impossible to spot from the air unless someone was careless and left on a light or it was a moonlit evening during winter.

There is always a glare from the firebox under the train.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

Heavy bombers were used to bomb marshaling yards. This was the test which seemed to surprise everyone with how accurate RAF bomber command had become. The marshaling yards were valuable because they included support facilitie.

 

[Milosh]

Scroll down to The Attack on the Railways and Waterways. United States Strategic Bombing Survey: Summary Report (European War)"

 

[Reluctant Poster]

Scroll down to The Attack on the Railways and Waterways. United States Strategic Bombing Survey: Summary Report (European War)"

One accomplishment that Bomber Harris should get a lot of credit for but gets overlooked is that he placed a strong emphasis on mining. In fact the USAAF took his lessons to heart and brought Japanese sea traffic to a virtual halt via a massive mining program using B-29s.