Powerplants for the Fw 190 / Ta 152

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by GregP, Jan 8, 2013.

  1. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    The Fw 190 started life with a BMW 139 radial, descended from the BMW 132. It was 55.4 liters, developed 1,550 HP, and suffered from rear row cooling inadequacy, and many other two or more row radials did.

    The Fw 190 A/B/C/F sported a BMW 801 radial. The 801 introduced fuel injection, a compressor, and a “brain box” that controlled everything with a single lever. The dry weight was 2,667 pounds and developed 1,600 HP for takeoff with a continuous power rating of 1,280 HP. The “A” version ran clockwise; the “B” ran counterclockwise. Overall diameter was 51.5 inches. Fuel consumption at rated power (1,280 HP) was 55 gph. The engine was progressively improved to 1,700 HP for takeoff and then to 2,000 HP for takeoff. The “E” model went to 2,270 HP for takeoff with water / methanol injection, but that didn’t last for very long after takeoff.

    The Fw 190 D sported a Junkers Jumo 213, mostly the “E”.

    The Ta 152 sported the Jumo 213E and 222 as wella s the DB 603.

    The Ta 152H sported a Jumo 213 E/F that weighed in, as specified above, at about 1,808 pounds dry. The Ta 152 C also had a Jumo (213A) of about the same weight except for the C-0 and C-1, which had a DB 603L powerplant (see above). Cone C models had a Jumo 222 wich made 2,465 HP for takeoff and 1,870 HP at cruise. It had a dry weight of 2,399 pounds.

    The BMW 802 was a development of the 139 and achieved 2,400 HP on the test stand, but never was developed into a production engine before the end of hostilities. It never made it into a deployed Fw 190 / Ta 152.

    The BMW 803 was totally new engine of 28 cylinder (4 rows of 7 cylinder, as was the American R-4360). Two different versions were built; one having normal valves and one having an experimental valve system. Both were running on test beds when the war ended and produced 3,900 HP for takeoff and 3,350 HP as a continuous rating. They were 83.5 liters (5,095 cubic inches compared with the American R-4360). Dry weight was 9,305 pounds.

    The DB 603 was also a powerplant. It was an inverted V-12 of 44.5 liters, made 1,750 HP for takeoff and a dry weight of 2,006 pounds. Continuous rating was 1,450 HP. A slightly enlarged version was the DB 603E with a continuous rating of 1,560 HP and a dry weight of 2,050 pounds. The DB 603 L made 1,980 HP for takeoff and 1,400 HP continuous. The most powerful DB 603 was the N with a rating of 2,830 HP for takeoff and 1,930 HP continuous.

    The Jumo 213E was a 12 cylinder, inverted Vee that appeared to late in the war to do much in the way of help, but was a good engine. It displaced 35.97 liters and developed 1,740 HP for takeoff and 1,200 HP continuous. Dry weight was 1,808 pounds. An improved version making 2,000 HP for takeoff was scheduled but never made production.

    You will note the BMW 803 weighed in dry at 9,305 pounds, and the rest of the engines flown in the Fw 190 / Ta 152 weighed in at less than one-quarter of this weight. If there is anyone out there who had ever designed an aircraft, you know you cannot stuff in an engine of twice the power and four times the weioght with no other design changes. If nothing else, the wing and tail surfaces will not handle the torque and extra weight, and the CG will be unflyable.

    I submit the alluded-to Fw 190 / Ta 152 with the BMW 803 would have been an entirely new and larger aircraft that never even made the drawing board, much less had metal cut for it. I would view any suggestion of flying a standard Fw 190 or Ta 152 with a BMW 803 as being unrealistic to say the least, but the potential for a heavy fighter was certainly there, as far as a powerplant goes, when the war ended. Things might have gotten interesting if this dreamed-of fighter had ever gotten into production. Of course, by then, other more advanced piston fighters were flying for other countries and most were rapidly being abandoned for jets. Some were even built and never flown!

    I submit the Third Reich would have done the same and concentrated on jets, had it survived past early 1945.

    Any comments on the potential future of big pistons in mid-to late 1945 had the war continued?
     
  2. Vincenzo

    Vincenzo Active Member

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    afaik 190C would be the DB 603 variant
     
  3. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    #3 GregP, Jan 9, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2013
    Hi Vincenzo,

    This thread was intended to address the rumored 4,000 HP Fw 190 (maybe Ta 152?). It was never going to be so. You cannot install an engine of twice the power and 4 times the weight into an airframe and expect to fly it.

    The "twice the power" part could possibly be done, especially if only for takeoff, if the tail (especially the rudder and fin) and wing surfaces are suitably increased in size for control, but 4 times the weight cannot be done in a single engine fighter without extreme modification to the point that the airframe is basically not the same. Either the wing has to be moved forward or the firewall has to moved backward until the result is a new aircraft.

    I will not look up or challenge your engine expertise. I acccept it since the engine is not the 9,000+ pound monster BMW 803 that never flew. What I was trying to say is that the plane that could have been constructed for a BMW 803 could not be anything like the Fw 190 or Ta 152 .... it had to be bigger and of fundamentally different layout and construction.

    The USA had an experimental engine, too. It was the Lycoming 7755. 7,750 cubic inches and no potential airframe in sight when the war ended. But it DID run and still exists in a museum in the USA. Doesn't mean it would ever have flown in a fighter. It was abandoned for the jet engine and only existed as a prototype, like the BMW 803.

    An R-3350 is impressive enough! I'd love to see a BMW 803 today, as I'd love to see the R-7755 in person, too.
     
  4. wuzak

    wuzak Well-Known Member

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    Greg, where did you get the info for a 4000hp Fw190?

    In the Ta 152 vs XP-72 thread there was a suggestion that a version was to have a 4000hp R-4360. During the war the R-4360 was at 3000hp, basically, and not reaching 4000hp in its life.
     
  5. Milosh

    Milosh Well-Known Member

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    Where does this BMW803 in a fighter come from? Afaik it was intended for large a/c like bombers.
     
  6. Aozora

    Aozora Well-Known Member

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    According to Janes ATWA 1945-46 the BMW 803 weighed 2,950 kg or 6,490 lbs dry and the complete power plant was 4,130 kg or 9,086 kg for 3,900 hp for take-off and emergency - just putting that in perspective, a Bf 109K-4, fully equipped weighed 3,362 kg (7,410 lbs):

    BMW 803 1.jpg BMW 803 2.jpg

    not a great power to weight ratio cf the P&W R-4360 which weighed (depending on variant) between 3,690 lbs (1,673 kg) for the -12 and 4,040 lbs (1,832 kg) for the -53 and was reliably generating 3,000 to 3,800 hp. For a single engined fighter the 803 would have been a liability - imagine trying to manoeuvre with that mass in the nose, or tail. One line of design which had great potential was the Do 335, which was arguably an ideal twin-engined concept. As a Heavy fighter it was probably more flexible than a "larger' Ta-152 9one wonders how much bigger it would have to be) with BMW 803.

    AFAIK the P&W R-4360 was the only reliable 4 row radial engine manufactured in quantity.
     
  7. nuuumannn

    nuuumannn Well-Known Member

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    Interesting info Greg; I'd suspect (had things kept going) that these fighters would have run their course and jet powered successors would have entered LW service; why would they keep piston engined fighters in service, except for ground attack/close support like the AD-1, when the Allies were bringing jets into service? The last British, Russian and US piston engined fighters in service were powered by engines already flying in WW2. Perhaps a jet powered Fw 190/Ta 152 like the Russian Yaks with axial flow engines slung under the forward fuselage?
     
  8. wuzak

    wuzak Well-Known Member

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    Luftwaffe Secret Projects: Fighters 1939-1945 mentions:

    Fw 190 with BMW 801E
    Fw 190 with DB 603 (which was the Fw 190C)
    Fw 190 with DB 614 (DB 603 with 2 stage supercharger?)
    Fw 190 with BMW P.8019 (not sure what that engine was)
    A single seater with Jumo 222 - enlarged Fw 190 airframe
    A single seater with BMW 802 (18 cylinder version of 801) - mostly new airframe based on the Fw 190 design
    A single seater with BMW 803 - new design with mid mounted engine, pusher prop and twin booms.

    The book describes in more detail the 802 design, the 803 design and the Jumo 222 design.

    The first two are shown at Luft46:
    Focke-Wulf FW Fighter Project w/ BMW 802 engine Luft '46 entry
    FW FIGHTER W/BMW 803

    The book describes at least 3 variants of the 803 aircraft, differing where the radiators were housed.

    The Jumo 222 version does not appear to be in Luft46. The book shows a low wing monoplane with mid mounted Jumo 222 driving a tractor propeller via an extension shaft, the cockpit being mounted ahead of the wing leading edge.

    Luftwaffe Secret Projects also shows some high altitude Focke Wulf designs based on Jumo 222s or Argus As 413 (H-24 based on Jumo 213 components - expected 4000hp). These are pusher designs with conventional wings and tail surfaces (albeit in cruciform style). Shown at Luft46 too.
     
  9. alejandro_

    alejandro_ Member

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    One further question. After deployment of Fw 190/Ta 152, was the manufacturing of Fw 190 with radian engines going to continue? I would expect standardisation around Ta 152 or Fw 190 D depending on the circumstances.
     
  10. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    #10 tomo pauk, Jan 9, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2013
    Hi, Greg, some disagreements:

    The Fw-190A/F/G were the ones with BMW-801. The A B were never installed in 190, it was the A's sibling, the 801C (using B4 fuel) that was installed, along with the 801D (C3 fuel) and later ones (the S being in Fw-190A-9).

    It was mostly the Jumo-213A installed, in the Fw-190D-9.

    Jumo-222 was never flown in service.

    .....

    Agreed.

    If by 'big pistons' you mean 'big piston engines', then my take is that, at least for the Luftwaffe, jets were far more appealing.

    some other disagreements:

    The DB-603E was featuring an enlarged supercharger, the engine itself was of same displacement.

    The ADI liquid used in BMWs was fuel, not water-methanol.
     
  11. Vincenzo

    Vincenzo Active Member

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    I'm not a expertise in engines but you need read what i writed...
     
  12. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    I got the BMW 803 at 9,000 pounds from Heinz Nowarra's book, "The Focke Wulf Fw 190 - A Famous German Fighter." He emntions the BMW 803 as a developmental engine, of whicj two were built. He says that an Fw 190 / Ta 152 type development was possible but was never proceeded with since the end of hostilities curtailed any further effort. The same thing happened to teh Lycoming R-7755, but it was doomed not by the end iof hostilities, but by the turbojet engine.

    Why make something as big and complex as the radial when a simple turbojet was going to be faster anyway? My theory here is that while it would have been popssible, had the war been extended a bit longer, for Germany to have come up with a new generation of superfighters as WE did, they would have been eliminated in favor of the jet just as ours were.

    Meanwhile, I was trying to point out that the fw 190 had three different V-12 engines in it (DB 603. Jumo 213 and 222) as well as a couple of radials (The BMW 139 and 801) ... quite adaptable, I'd say.
     
  13. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    Few people, if any, will object the statement that Fw-190 air frame was one of the best fielded in the ww2, well suited for many tasks. The power egg layout of the Jumo 213 and DB-603 greatly simplified the job for Focke Wulf, to create offspprings of the Fw-190. Now, the Jumo 222 was not a V-12, the Fw-190 was never in production with DB-603 (bar prototypes). The BMW-803 was an engine looking for the airframe, the Jumo-222 might order the air frame changed? The Germans dropped the ball for not implementing two-stage engines (based on DB-605 BMW-801) from late 1943 on.

    Nowarra's books are not well regarded now as they were in the 1970s, too much of new original material surfaced that collides from the data views expressed there. I have the book about the Bf-109, with some illustrations simply wrong, along with some data in tables wrong.
     
  14. riacrato

    riacrato Member

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    Well iirc the DB 603-powered Ta 152 C was in production when the war ended with one or two delivered, but I'd hardly count that.

    Two two-stage DB 605s were tried: One was apparently simply not worth the effort (DB 628, quite the odd design) and the other didn't make it in time (DB605 L, earmarked for late Bf 109 K variants). IMO this wasn't the horse for Germany to bet on, they should've introduced more ADI boosted "normal" DB 605s instead, which seems to have worked quite well and much earlier in the war. And follow with DB 603 and Jumo 213 powered Fw 190s / Ta 152s.

    I doubt anyone actually needed fighters (especially not single seaters) powered 2500-3000 hp piston engines. The little top-speed that is gained over the 2000-2500 hp fighters seems to be in no good relation to the increased fuel consumption, weight and size and the downsides that come with that. Plus jets are just around the corner or already there, really.
     
  15. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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    What 2500-3000hp fighters could bring to the table was range and firepower without sacrificing speed or climb.
     
  16. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    The two-stage supercharging gives power when where it was needed: second half of the war, ETO, at 25000 ft (+-). The ADI, or MW-50 was indeed used on DB-605A (= DB-605AM), but there was still no gain at altitudes where USAF was throwing in it's bombers their escorts, since the ADI was of use below no-ADI full throttle heigh. Same thing was with BMW-801D, that was using fuel injection as ADI.

    I'd appreciate the more elaborate input re. DB-628, particularly why we would call the 628 as not worth it, or that is an odd design.
     
  17. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    Touche, Vincenzo. As far as I know, the Fw 190C had a DB603G with Hirth turbo blower (a great feal of problems with it). So, you are correct. The Ta 152C-3 had a DB 603LA. The Ta 152C for low altitude work had a Jumo 222 AB/3 or E/F engine.
     
  18. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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  19. riacrato

    riacrato Member

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    Should've more generally said use of injection systems. If N2O was used, BMW801s used on high altitude recons were able to produce 1,410 hp instead of 868 hp.

    The 628 had the first stage in front of the engine with a long and curved "ofenrohr" extension to the second stage. Not only does this mean extra weight, it also makes the system much less efficient as compared to e.g. the straight forward Merlin 2-stage system.
     
  20. riacrato

    riacrato Member

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    Greg, no Ta 152 was ever fitted with a Jumo 222. At best there were conceptional drawings. Even those I have not seen.

    There were several prototypes DB 603, some of which were equipped with the Hirth turbo charger ("kangaroos"). According to Hermann's most recent publications (2000s) the prototype most resembling of the ordered Fw 190 C was the V-15 or the V-16 before modification as engine test bed. But even those lack the oil radiator integrated into the annual radiator like was later done on Fw 190 or Ta 152. So they are close but not quite.
     
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