pzl vs 109

VA5124 · Jun 6, 2021

can someone prove to me that the polish fighters could hold their with the 109

GregP · Jun 6, 2021

No, I can't. They can't, either. They weren't bad, but they also weren't modern fighters able to compete with the Bf 109. The P-11 was a 1934 fighter and the Bf 109 first flew in 1936, but that two and a half years saw some terrific development. The PZL P.11 was almost 110 mph slower, could not climb nearly as well, and had a service ceiling 10,000 feet lower.

The P.11 was very competitive against the P-26 Peashooter (visibility was much better from the P-26), but neither of these types were nearly as good as a Bf 109, at least when the Bf 109 wasn't critically low on fuel. The P-26 was state of the art in 1932, but was obsolescent by WWII. The P.11 started life as obsolescent with regards to WWII performance, though it was a decent plane for 1934.

Thumpalumpacus · Jun 6, 2021

The Polish PZL-11 pilot I met and talked to a couple of times long ago mentioned shooting down a Do-17, and almost being killed by a -109, during the Polish battle, for what that's worth.

Even after 64 years, you could still tell the respect he held for the German fighter -- and he went on to fly Hurris and Spits for the Brits, too.

Greg Boeser · Jun 6, 2021

The Poles were exceptionally well trained pilots let down by their equipment.
A Question of Honor
The Forgotten Few
Just a couple books on the Polish contribution to the war.

GrauGeist · Jun 6, 2021

Poland was slow to modernize it's air force. The PZL.50 program was a step in the right direction, but was plagued with engine and landing gear issues which could have been sorted out if it had been started even two years sooner.

As it stands, the PZL.11, even though being obsolete, gave a good showing of itself defending Poland during the invasion, being credited with 110 Luftwaffe aircraft downed at a cost of 100 PZL.11s lost.

Hardrada55 · Jun 6, 2021

The Poles wasted millions of Zloty on the PZL 38 Wilk heavy fighter-bomber between 1934 and 1939 that probably should have been dedicated to a less ambitious fighter project.

GregP · Jun 6, 2021

Of the 110 Luftwaffe aircraft lost, how many were Bf 109s? I bet they were mostly Ju 87s and He 111s, but I also don't have the real data.

GrauGeist · Jun 6, 2021

GregP said:
Of the 110 Luftwaffe aircraft lost, how many were Bf 109s? I bet they were mostly Ju 87s and He 111s, but I also don't have the real data.

I don't have a breakdown of types that the PZL.11 downed, but of the over 250 Luftwaffe aircraft lost, 110 were by the PZL.11, which is quite a dent.

Perhaps Herr Wurger may have better details regarding those 110 downed?

Denniss · Jun 7, 2021

I have seen a list claiming 285 a/c losses for all causes + about the same number with damage of 10% or higher (possible writeoffs).
Of the 285 about 70 were Fighters (109 I assume) and about 10 Zerstörer (110).
And these 110 credited to the P.11, do we known the ratio of overclaim vs real losses?

Wurger · Jun 7, 2021

GrauGeist said:
I don't have a breakdown of types that the PZL.11 downed, but of the over 250 Luftwaffe aircraft lost, 110 were by the PZL.11, which is quite a dent.

Perhaps Herr Wurger may have better details regarding those 110 downed?

According to Jerzy B. Cynk, Polish fighters shot down 97 German planes and damaged 60-65 others to the state these never got back to the service.
The LW losses are said :

bombers - 73
fighters - 56
destroyers - 12
diving bombers - 31
long range recce - 25
close recce - 32
transport - 12
seaplanes - 8
liaison and others - 9

total number - 258

According to K. Cieślak the scores in dogfight between fighters were :
PZL P-11 - 10 Bf-109 and 13 Bf-110 .... ( other source says 10 Bf-109 and 8 Bf 110)
Bf-109 and Bf-110 - 26 PZL P-11 and 6 PZL P-7.

And Andrzej Glass in his book "Samoloty myśliwskie września 1939" ( Fighter planes of September 1939 ) mentioned:
For 118 fighters PZL P-11 and P-7 shot down , 32 were by German fighters ...

Greyman · Jun 7, 2021

I think there were still a lot of 109Ds in the mix during the Polish campaign. The P.11 would probably have been able to hold its own above 18,000 ft.

As heights got below that, things would get progressively worse until 4,000 ft and lower the 109D was a good 60 mph faster.

GrauGeist · Jun 7, 2021

Wurger said:
According to Jerzy B. Cynk, Polish fighters shot down 97 German planes and damaged 60-65 others to the state these never got back to the service.
The LW losses are said :

bombers - 73
fighters - 56
destroyers - 12
diving bombers - 31
long range recce - 25
close recce - 32
transport - 12
seaplanes - 8
liaison and others - 9

total number - 258

According to K. Cieślak the scores in dogfight between fighters were :
PZL P-11 - 10 Bf-109 and 13 Bf-110 .... ( other source says 10 Bf-109 and 8 Bf 110)
Bf-109 and Bf-110 - 26 PZL P-11 and 6 PZL P-7.

And Andrzej Glass in his book "Samoloty myśliwskie września 1939" ( Fighter planes of September 1939 ) mentioned:
For 118 fighters PZL P-11 and P-7 shot down , 32 were by German fighters ...

Thanks for posting the details!

pzl vs 109

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VA5124

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GregP

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Greg Boeser

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GregP

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