Questions About Japanese Air Power - 1943

[DarrenW]

Ok, I have read time and time again on this forum that the Japanese were technically defeated by the time the Hellcat arrived to do battle in August 1943. And I do understand how the big naval battles of 1942 set the IJN back to a point of no return, and that the earlier pilots flying F4Fs, P-39s, and P-40s engaged a very different group of Japanese pilots in those days than what was encountered only a short year later.

What I'm having a hard time swallowing is the common notion that the P-38 and F4U pilots somehow fought a much more skilled and deadly opponent than the F6F, which showed up on the scene only months later (eight months after the P-38, seven months after the F4U). Were the Japanese really so soundly beaten during this time frame that by comparison it was basically a cake walk for pilots flying the Hellcat? I think not but not knowing all the facts I thought I'd reach out to other forum members who are much more schooled in the various combats that occurred, and those who know the battle record of the Lightning and Corsair better than I. I'm sure that there are people here who have studied this extensively and know a lot about the IJN and IJA so I want to hear from them as well. My library unfortunately isn't as extensive as I would like it to be and I don't want to resort to Wikipedia in order to get all my information concerning this.

I want to add that this is not meant to diminish the hard fighting that the crews of the Lightning and Corsair endured during the early part of 1943, nothing would be farther from the truth. I was just wondering if anyone had hard facts that include real numbers, rather than assumptions and white-washed figures. I'm particularly interested in actual Japanese losses that include names of pilots who were aces or were considered excellent pilots and leaders within the Japanese air services that were lost during the fighting in early to mid 1943.

As always, all facts and opinions are welcomed with opened arms...

 

[pbehn]

In terms of the relative air power in this conflict the number of aircraft carriers available is as significant as the planes they carried. If you look at the order date of the Essex and independence class carriers and when they became available it shows that Pearl Harbor was an action that formalised a conflict that everyone knew was coming. Of the Essex class carriers 10 were ordered before Pearl Harbour and only a further 2 in Dec 1941.in total 24 were built. Discussions about the Independence class started in August 1941 and work started converting cruisers to carriers almost immediately.

The ordering of these carriers in 1940-41 plus 127 CVE escort carriers meant that starting in 1943 the USA was commissioning more than 2 carriers per month of one sort or another.

The Hellcat prototype was ordered in the same month that Barbarossa started, it would be interesting to know which was first.

 

[DarrenW]

The Hellcat prototype was ordered in the same month that Barbarossa started, it would be interesting to know which was first.

Operation Barbarrosa was launched June 22nd 1941, eight days before the Grumman Corporation signed the contract for the XF6F-1 with the US Navy.

 

[DarrenW]

I attached 9 pages of an interrogation document that explains the Japanese side of things during the Solomon campaign. I don't have the entire document unfortunately as I happened upon it by chance while surfing the web. Granted, it's difficult to say if these Japanese leaders were being forthright with the facts but hopefully accurate conclusions may still be drawn from their testimony.

This link might be useful as well:

United States Strategic Bombing Survey: Interrogations of Japanese Officials

 

[pbehn]

Operation Barbarrosa was launched June 22nd 1941, eight days before the Grumman Corporation signed the contract for the XF6F-1 with the US Navy.

Hard to believe they are not related, there was a huge amount of "stuff" ordered and put in train between Barbarossa and Pearl Harbor.

 

[VBF-13]

Ok, I have read time and time again on this forum that the Japanese were technically defeated by the time the Hellcat arrived to do battle in August 1943. And I do understand how the big naval battles of 1942 set the IJN back to a point of no return, and that the earlier pilots flying F4Fs, P-39s, and P-40s engaged a very different group of Japanese pilots in those days than what was encountered only a short year later.

What I'm having a hard time swallowing is the common notion that the P-38 and F4U pilots somehow fought a much more skilled and deadly opponent than the F6F, which showed up on the scene only months later (eight months after the P-38, seven months after the F4U). Were the Japanese really so soundly beaten during this time frame that by comparison it was basically a cake walk for pilots flying the Hellcat? I think not but not knowing all the facts I thought I'd reach out to other forum members who are much more schooled in the various combats that occurred, and those who know the battle record of the Lightning and Corsair better than I. I'm sure that there are people here who have studied this extensively and know a lot about the IJN and IJA so I want to hear from them as well. My library unfortunately isn't as extensive as I would like it to be and I don't want to resort to Wikipedia in order to get all my information concerning this.

I want to add that this is not meant to diminish the hard fighting that the crews of the Lightning and Corsair endured during the early part of 1943, nothing would be farther from the truth. I was just wondering if anyone had hard facts that include real numbers, rather than assumptions and white-washed figures. I'm particularly interested in actual Japanese losses that include names of pilots who were aces or were considered excellent pilots and leaders within the Japanese air services that were lost during the fighting in early to mid 1943.

As always, all facts and opinions are welcomed with opened arms...

I'm going to go with opinions because I don't have the facts you're looking for. Certainly there was a point when the Japanese were facing attrition. The same goes for the Axis powers, generally. The Germans were facing attrition when the Army Air Force released the P-51. Did the P-51 have an easy time for it?

The F6F turned the tide of that Pacific war, I don't care what anyone says, it was too much for anything in the air. There, I said it. BTW, I like your avatar.

 

[VBF-13]

I attached 9 pages of an interrogation document that explains the Japanese side of things during the Solomon campaign. I don't have the entire document unfortunately as I happened upon it by chance while surfing the web. Granted, it's difficult to say if these Japanese leaders were being forthright with the facts but hopefully accurate conclusions may still be drawn from their testimony.

This link might be useful as well:

United States Strategic Bombing Survey: Interrogations of Japanese Officials

BTW, this is a very interesting perspective. Thank you.

 

[DarrenW]

The F6F turned the tide of that Pacific war, I don't care what anyone says, it was too much for anything in the air. There, I said it. BTW, I like your avatar.

We are like kindred spirits my friend. I knew when I saw your moniker that you would be amongst the most intelligent and learned of them all......

 

[DarrenW]

Hard to believe they are not related, there was a huge amount of "stuff" ordered and put in train between Barbarossa and Pearl Harbor.

Somebody high up in the food chain knew something about something.

 

[parsifal]

The F6f did NOT "turn the tide" for the battle in the pacific. by the time it had arrived, the back of Japanese airpower had already been well and truly broken.

The Hellcat's first combat mission occurred on August 31, 1943, in a strike against Marcus Island, including Cdr. Charles Crommelin's VF-5, Lt. Cdr. Phil Torrey's VF-9, and a detachment of O'Hare's VF-6. The early-morning raiders destroyed eight twin-engine bombers on the ground (allegedly, based solely on claims made at the time, there is serious doubt any losses at all were suffered by the Japanese at the time), while losing two Hellcats to anti-aircraft fire and one to engine trouble. The next day, over Howland and Bakers Islands, Lt.(jg) Dick Loesch and Ens. A.W. Nyquist scored the Hellcat's first aerial victory when they teamed up to shoot down a Kawanishi H8K "Emily" flying boat. at least that's the first claim made by a Hellcat driver. it was the first of many false claims made against the IJN.....

Large-scale carrier operations began in October, with a attack on Wake. When four carriers struck Wake Island on October 5-6, the Hellcats saw their first significant aerial combat. Half an hour before dawn on the 5th, each of the four carriers launched three fighter divisions, 47 Hellcats in all. When they were still 50 miles out from Wake, the Japanese radar detected them, and 27 Zeros intercepted. In the ensuing dogfight, Fighting Nine's skipper, Phil Torrey, shot down one Zero, then evaded two more by dodging in and out of clouds. Lt. Hadden, while watching a shared kill fall into the ocean, was jumped by two Zeros, and was lucky enough to make it back to Essex with most of his engine oil emptied out through several 20mm holes. Lt. (jg) McWhorter dove into a gaggle of Zeros, when one serendipitously appeared in his gunsight. He fired a short burst and exploded the Zero - his first aerial victory. in fact post war it was fairly well established to be another false claim.

Hellcats had virtually no impact on the air campaigns in the PTO until November .

meanwhile, the daily slog in a war of attrition against the Japanese continued. By mid 1943, the Japanese had lost a staggering 6500 aircraft in operational combat and operational losses. It is reasonable to claim, though not possible to prove, that the majority of losses weren't even at the hands of the US forces. 60% of allied a/c committed to the SWPA and SoPac commands were even American, so it follows that the majority of losses inflicted on the Japanese weren't coming from American sources

 

[DarrenW]

Did the P-51 have an easy time for it?

This thread is about the PTO but it could easily be about the situation in the ETO as well. The defamatory rhetoric I've been hearing as of late, in regards to the importance of both the Hellcat and Mustang as war winning aircraft, is bewildering to me at best. Yes, I do understand that there were many factors besides their innate qualities that enabled these two aircraft to perform admirably during the war. And yes, sometimes there were bigger factors at play where the contributions of fighters had little to no effect on the the actual outcome of any particular battle. I get all that. But why does it seem though, at least to me anyway, that the records of other fighter aircraft are seldom if ever scrutinized (or for that matter, minimized) in the same fashion?
My conclusions are that it can only be one of two reasons: pure jealously, or a deep dark desire to tear down those that are on top (maybe both). And as far as American victory credits go the Mustang and Hellcat are WAY the heck on top!

Getting off my soap box and back to the topic at hand (sorry guys), I want to mention the actual dates in which the three mentioned fighters experienced their "baptism of fire" in the Southwest Pacific:

Dec 27, '42 P-38s of the 39th FS, 35th FG fly their first combat mission in the SW Pacific. In the Papua, New Guinea campaign nine Japanese fighters and two dive bombers are claimed for the loss of one Lightning.

Feb 14 '43 The VMF-124 Corsairs join other fighters escorting Liberators on a raid to Kahili, Bougainville. They met 50 fighters and only three Zeros are shot down while ten US aircraft are lost: four P-38s, two P-40s, two Liberators, and two of the Corsairs. This engagement becomes known as the Saint Valentine's Day Massacre, an inauspicious debut for the Corsair.

Aug 28 '43 Land-based Guadalcanal Hellcats of Sqn. VF-33 enter combat and fly escort for bombers in raids on Kahili and Ballale. The Hellcats are later based at Munda and in three weeks claim 21 Zeros shot down with four F6F-3s lost.

Source: America's Hundred Thousand

My question is that in those eight months prior to it's arrival, did the Lightning and Corsair (and others) so thoroughly clean-up Japanese air resistance that the Hellcat was, as one P-38 fanboy put it, only left to deal with the "dregs" of the IJNAF and IJAF? It's possible I guess but I still need to see a lot more proof in order to be thoroughly convinced of it. At the moment though I'm finding it highly improbable indeed....

 

[DarrenW]

He fired a short burst and exploded the Zero - his first aerial victory. in fact post war it was fairly well established to be another false claim.

The next day, over Howland and Bakers Islands, Lt.(jg) Dick Loesch and Ens. A.W. Nyquist scored the Hellcat's first aerial victory when they teamed up to shoot down a Kawanishi H8K "Emily" flying boat. at least that's the first claim made by a Hellcat driver. it was the first of many false claims made against the IJN.....

Source for these supposed "false claims"?

And this is exactly the point that I've been trying to make here. This thread was about Japanese airpower and whether or not it was decimated before the Hellcat's arrival. But look what it has evolved into. For some reason the records of the P-38 and F4U are conveniently ignored, while the main focus of negative comments are about the F6F. Couldn't have come at a better time IMHO.

And just to clear up any confusion from what was stated in my previous post, the first carrier-based combat mission for the Hellcat occurred on 31 Aug '43......

 

[DarrenW]

meanwhile, the daily slog in a war of attrition against the Japanese continued. By mid 1943, the Japanese had lost a staggering 6500 aircraft in operational combat and operational losses. It is reasonable to claim, though not possible to prove, that the majority of losses weren't even at the hands of the US forces. 60% of allied a/c committed to the SWPA and SoPac commands were even American, so it follows that the majority of losses inflicted on the Japanese weren't coming from American sources

Hi Parsifal,
6500 Japanese aircraft lost huh? Could you break down the figures you have regarding aircraft percentages of ALL the combatants that were present in the southwest Pacific theater during the months leading up to mid June 1943, and your source for the Japanese losses?

 

[parsifal]

Source for these supposed "false claims"?

one source is the book To Hell and Back: Wake During and After World War II ; Dirk spennermann.

Essentially after the fall of the marshalls and the gilberts, it became virtually impossible to re-supply the island. more often than not the aircraft were grounded or not there at all. If you want to argue that shooting up grounded aircraft is the crowning achievement of the hellcats, be my guest.

Source for these supposed "false claims"?

And this is exactly the point that I've been trying to make here. This thread was about Japanese airpower and whether or not it was decimated before the Hellcat's arrival. But look what it has evolved into. For some reason the records of the P-38 and F4U are conveniently ignored, while the main focus of negative comments are about the F6F. Couldn't have come at a better time IMHO.

And just to clear up any confusion from what was stated in my previous post, the first carrier-based combat mission for the Hellcat occurred on 31 Aug '43......

What are you saying. I'm hardly singing the praises of the Corsair or the p-38. They too are grossly overrated aircraft, and not responsible to any great extent for the defeat of the Japanese.

If you ask me, the biggest killer of Japanese airpower wasn't any fighter, it was the venerable b-24, backed up by the beaufort and B-25 formations. They had the range to hit the Japanese lines of communication very effectively in a way the US fighter forces could not. once the f6F were embarked in sufficient numbers and the fast carriers became a significant factor in the destruction of Japanese forces, then you have an argument. That wasn't the case until the very end of 1943. in 1944 it was a different kettle of fish.

 

[parsifal]

Hi Parsifal,
6500 Japanese aircraft lost huh? Could you break down the figures you have regarding aircraft percentages of ALL the combatants that were present in the southwest Pacific theater during the months leading up to mid June 1943, and your source for the Japanese losses?

I rely on the final report submitted by Commander Fukamizu to the USSBS at the end of the war. His report remains the single most accurate report on Japanese losses for the war. It was passed over in the final report by the authors of the USSBS though they did have enough respect to annex it to the final report. instead the survey relied on claims based data supplied by the USN which we now know to be grossly overclaiming. Hellcat overclaiming is one of the top inaccuracies of that report. 19:1 my ar *se

USSBS: Interrogations of Japanese Officials -- 50/202

 

[GrauGeist]

This thread is about the PTO but it could easily be about the situation in the ETO as well. The defamatory rhetoric I've been hearing as of late, in regards to the importance of both the Hellcat and Mustang as war winning aircraft, is bewildering to me at best.

You also need to keep in mind that the numbers of P-51B/C/D and F6F aircraft that the U.S. fielded (in any theater) was simply over-whelming to the Axis.
You didn't need a couple of aces to whittle down the enemy's numbers when you had hundreds getting one or two (or more) over a period of time.

It was literally death by a thousand papercuts...

 

[VBF-13]

We are like kindred spirits my friend. I knew when I saw your moniker that you would be amongst the most intelligent and learned of them all......

Lol!

 

[VBF-13]

I rely on the final report submitted by Commander Fukamizu to the USSBS at the end of the war. His report remains the single most accurate report on Japanese losses for the war. It was passed over in the final report by the authors of the USSBS though they did have enough respect to annex it to the final report. instead the survey relied on claims based data supplied by the USN which we now know to be grossly overclaiming. Hellcat overclaiming is one of the top inaccuracies of that report. 19:1 my ar *se

USSBS: Interrogations of Japanese Officials -- 50/202

View attachment 490865

I don't see what relevance that chart has to the discussion, quite honestly. The F6, hands-down, was the best carrier-fighter ever. Nothing could touch it. I'm talking in its element. In Europe, the German fighters, from what I think I know, gave it a much better run than the A6. It couldn't turn, that was the only thing wrong with it. Even the F4 could turn inside it. It's how it fought the A6 that made it superior. And I don't care what pilots were in the cockpits. As long as Grumman delivered what Butch O'Hare had asked for, a fighter that could "get on top," that was it. In fact, I'll go as far as to say, had we had it at the start, the war would have ended in 1943, early 1944. Then we could have sailed more over to Europe to help out there.

 

[pbehn]

As long as Grumman delivered what Butch O'Hare had asked for, a fighter that could "get on top," that was it. In fact, I'll go as far as to say, had we had it at the start, the war would have ended in 1943, early 1944. Then we could have sailed more over to Europe to help out there.

Europe wouldn't need any help because Spitfire Mk IXs would have destroyed the LW in 1940 meaning Adolf had nothing to invade Russia with. The F4F made its first kill on Christmas day 1940 and were operational as a carrier aircraft with the FAA in September 1941. The F4F was just there at the start, to think the F6F could be there is a generation leap in many fields, especially engines, the prototype didn't fly until June 1942..

 

[DarrenW]

...

Essentially after the fall of the marshalls and the gilberts, it became virtually impossible to re-supply the island. more often than not the aircraft were grounded or not there at all. If you want to argue that shooting up grounded aircraft is the crowning achievement of the hellcats, be my guest.

So if you somehow had the power to change the official record, how many aerial victories would parsifal personally award the Hellcat? I suspect you must know this, seeing how you know it's combat record so intimately (something tells me it's going to be an extremely low figure ). And while we are at it, how did the records of the other fighter aircraft serving in the pacific stack up to the figures you've arrived at for the F6F? I ask this because I feel it's both unfair and disingenuous to perform a critical analysis of one aircraft but remain silent about the other allied machines that served along side it. That's not how solid research should be performed in my opinion.

And for the record I'd be fine if the "crowning achievement" of the Hellcat was the destruction of the enemy on the ground. The goal of this and other aircraft was to annihilate the enemy in order to keep it from waging further war. How ever this can be accomplished is fine by me. But we both know in our heart of hearts that the F6F destroyed a huge number of Japanese aircraft in the air as well, probably way more than you will ever admit to in open forum...

It was passed over in the final report by the authors of the USSBS though they did have enough respect to annex it to the final report. instead the survey relied on claims based data supplied by the USN which we now know to be grossly overclaiming.

I guess it depends on which data you find more trustworthy - that of a freedom loving country which fought a ruthless, diabolical, scheming, and murderous dictatorship, or the figures supplied by that very dictatorship itself? Given the choice I'd choose the former, hands down.

If you ask me, the biggest killer of Japanese airpower wasn't any fighter, it was the venerable b-24, backed up by the beaufort and B-25 formations. They had the range to hit the Japanese lines of communication very effectively in a way the US fighter forces could not.

This we are in full agreement on. I hope you didn't think that I would discount the bomber as the main aerial weapon which brought both the Nazis and Imperial Japan to their very knees. Fighters were only the enablers here, because bombers cannot operate as effectively in contested airspace. That's why the defending axis fighters concentrated the main brunt of their forces on the aircraft carrying the most destructive power. It just wouldn't make good sense to do otherwise.

one source is the book To Hell and Back: Wake During and After World War II ; Dirk spennermann.

I haven't heard of this author before. I'll have to give his book a read and find out what his sources were. Thank you!