RAF Lockheed Ventura question.

[Airframes]

Whilst researching the Ventura in RAF service, I came across some film footage of aircraft of 21 Squadron, which showed the Ventura equipped with the Boulton Paul 4 gun turret, similar to that fitted to the later Marks of Halifax.
I'd never seen this before, always associating the Ventura with the bulbous, 2 gun Boulton Paul turret, as also fitted to the Hudson. Further investigation revealed a few photos of MkII Venturas with this turret, the best of which is shown below, along with a pic of a Ventura Mk1 with the original turret. (pic source unknown, thought to be IWM in Public Domain).
As most photos of RAF Ventura Mks I and II show the original turret, and I haven't seen any reference to the BP 4 gun turret in technical descriptions, I'd be interested to learn more about this - when it was fitted, serial number batches etc, if it was a 'mod' applied after initially employing the original turret in service on the same airframe etc.
I would presume that this was a local (field) modification, or at least undertaken at a MU.
As I have the Revell 1/48th scale kit lined up to add to my RAF 2 Group collection, it would be helpful to get some more info, even though I'll probably model this as a 'known' subject, either Mk1 or Mk II, with the kit supplied 2 gun turret.

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[Crimea_River]

A little info here Terry:

RAF Venturas -- which turret(s)?

 

[Airframes]

Thanks Andy.
It seems that there isn't (yet) a definitive answer.

 

[Nicolaas]

Could it be a Hudson?
The RAF used those for transport and they were build with the BP turret.

 

[Airframes]

No, both aircraft shown, and those in the mentioned film footage, are Venturas. Both gun turrets in question are Boulton Paul products, the 4 gun turret being the type used on the later Marks of Halifax (basically the same turret as on the Defiant), and on other aircraft such as the Liberator, Maryland, etc.
It's the 4 gun turret I am interested in.

 

[GrauGeist]

That is really a fascinating find, Terry!

Out of curiousity, could that ship have been a modified "one-off" as a transport for the Queen?

 

[Airframes]

No David, it seems that at least the Mk.II was fitted with this turret, either as 'standard', or retro-fitted to improve defensive armament (probably the latter), and the film footage mentioned shows a complete Squadron fitted with this turret.

 

[GrauGeist]

wow, ok Terry...I had no idea that was done!

Learned something today

 

[Wurger]

the pic source: NORFOLK, ENGLAND. 1943-07-13. CREW OF "N" FOR NUTS, A VENTURA AIRCRAFT OF NO. 464 SQUADRON RAAF ...

th epic source: ADF-Serials Image Gallery :: 464 Squadron Lockheed Ventura :: AJ466

 

[nuuumannn]

Just a wee bit of supporting info about the fitting of British turrets to US aircraft. The fitting of British turrets to US aircraft for RAF service is not so well documented, but it seems that armament was fitted once the aircraft arrived in the UK, although I have seen a photo of a Ventura with the the Boulton Paul Type C Mk.II turret, the two-gun one, undergoing trials in California. Initially the Hudsons, the first of the flood of US aircraft for the British forces in 1939, were delivered by sea to Liverpool and erected at Speke. All of these aircraft had their serials assigned on the production line, so arrived in the UK with their identities firmly established in documentation.

From what I understand about the Type A turret, the BP four-gun turret of the type fitted to the Defiant, on foreign aircraft it was fitted in the UK. The turret saw use on Liberator Mk.IIs as the A MK.IV as well as Martin Baltimore Mk.IIIs (A Mk.VA) and Ventura Mk.IIs (A Mk.V). I'm presuming this work was done at MU level. Using the Liberator as an example, the Mk.II Liberator was delivered to the UK unarmed and had the BP turret fitted aft of the wing box, not in the common position behind the flight deck as on USAAF Liberators. The Liberator Mk.II is unique in this. Some were fitted with a BP type E tail turret, of the same type as fitted to the Halifax, the Mk.III variant fitted to the LIberator Mk.II, although not all were actually fitted with the tail turret, as I've seen photos of Lib Mk.IIs wth the Type A turret, but with no tail turret.

Boulton Paul seems to have been the biggest supplier of turrets to requirements for foreign aircraft operated by the British to begin with, as Nash and Thompson primarily supplied to the RAF's heavy bomber needs, with the exception of the Halifax. This is, from what I can gather because BP turrets were entirely self contained; they didn't rely on the aircraft's hydraulic or electrical systems to operate, which meant their incorporation into the aircraft was less intensive. First fitted in the Defiant, the Type A four gun turret was the first BP electro-hydraulic turret and was based on the SAMM De Boysson turret designed in France, only refined for mass production. The Type C turret was designed as a nose turret for the Halifax, with the C Mk.II being configured with a new cupola and for use as a mid-upper turret. Otherwise the mechanism was identical - all of BP's early turrets were the same as the first Type A in mechanism and design.

Determining serial numbers of exactly which Ventural Mk.IIs received the BP A Mk.V turret or the C Mk.IV turret going to be difficult unless there is a record somewhere at MU level of which aircraft was fitted with which turret. That'll require trawling through the ORBs and other such documentation at The National Archive, if such a record exists. Presumably the turrets were fitted owing to availability and corresponding to aircraft deliveries to the UK under Lend Lease.

The other route would be to go through Ventura Mk.II Aircraft Movement Cards at the RAF Museum to determine which MU the machines went to and to subsequently cross reference between ORB info and the aircraft's movement, which would be lengthy and probably costly as well. The difference between Mk.I and II Venturas was their engines, from what I can establish. Both were assigned simultaneously within the same first batch of 300 aircraft in mid 1940, with a second batch of Mk.IIs in late 1940.

 

[Airframes]

Thanks Grant, great info.

 

[nuuumannn]

Dunno if it's gonna help you, Terry, but I suspect that determining serials etc from non archival sources is gonna be impossible. That is, unless some hardy soul has done the leg work already and published it online somewhere.

 

[MiTasol]

That is really a fascinating find, Terry!

Out of curiosity, could that ship have been a modified "one-off" as a transport for the Queen?

Just to eliminate any confusion on how old the Queen is in that photo that is the current Queens mother, also Queen Elizabeth. The current Queen was an ambulance driver at one stage.

 

[Airframes]

Yes, that is the late Queen Mother, at that time the Queen, Elizabeth, wife of the then Monarch, King George VI.

Thanks again Grant. Did a bit more digging and found some relatively recent questions, by others, along the same lines. I can only suppose that the Ventura Mk.II was 'up-gunned' at some point, in an effort to improve defensive armament, conversion almost certainly taking place at MUs.

 

[DBII]

Nice thread. I will search my books for pictures. I took photos inside a Ventura the Lone Star Flight Museum used to own if anyone is interested?