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I'm not giving up a lot.What are you giving up?
The reduced power cartridges are not going to work in most medium/heavy machine guns.
By work I mean do the job the army/s want them to do (long range fire) not just get the guns to fire in a reliable manner.
The question is not destroying old stocks but having to make new stocks incase of war.It is not required for either of these countries to destroy the older ammo stocks.
Actual weight reductions are going to be a lot less than 20-30%. You are stuck with 1920/30 metallurgy/technology.Americans were designing the Garand rifle and Johnson LMG. These two with a less powerful cartridge means that the new rifle can be 2-3 lbs lighter than the historical type, while the Johnson LMG will be less of a beast towards the user's shoulder. Make the new BARs and M1919s for the L-P cartridge.
British were buying the future Bren gun. So no change for them, apart that the Bren can be lighter, or it can longer sustain the firing before the barrel needs to be changed. Same for the Vickers GO.
Germans were designing the MG 34. Again, can be lighter this time 'round.
The question is not destroying old stocks but having to make new stocks incase of war.
The .30 cal Brownings are listed has having an effective range of 3000 yds with the 1906/M2 ammo and 4000yds with the M1 ammo (boat tail ball 172-174 grains)
The shoulder rifles and the BAR are all listed as having 600yd effective range regardless of the ammo. Yes their ammo was over powered.
Now the problem in 1930s for the US was that they were NOT going to go to a low powered cartridge for the 1917 and 1919 machine guns.
The tripod mounted machineguns were the long range firepower of the battalion. Unless you come up with new weapons (and man power) and/or better signaling for artillery support.
In fact the 1919A4 (the common version in WW II) was not adopted until 1936 with low scale production for the first few years. The 1919 had been designed for tank use and the 1922 version (the A2) used a short light barrel for cavalry use (carried on horse back) but the short light barrels hurt reliability.
Soldiers can still carry the same ammo as what the Bren used, since they will also use the same ammo.British riflemen sometimes acted as ammo carriers for the Bren gun, refilling Bren magazines for the gunner/s with their rifle ammo.
Other nations did the same thing. Japanese planned one of their guns to use a hopper using rifle clips. Unfortunately the gun did not like full power ammo and wound up needing it's own cartridge supply.
A bit to elaborate on this.The reduced power cartridge is a good idea, but it pretty much forces the adoption of a two cartridge solution.
On the US Side, there was the ever popular 30-30 Winchester, the 303 Savage and its rimless competitors the 30 Remington and 300 Savage on the civilian side.French do this in the 7.5mm rimless, Americans do this instead of the .276 Pedersen, Italians move a bit faster with the 7.35 etc. This scenario changes the design of the infantry guns in the 1930s-40s by a good amount.
On the US Side, there was the ever popular 30-30 Winchester, the 303 Savage and its rimless competitors the 30 Remington and 300 Savage on the civilian side.
That range in power from 2000J to 3500L, with case lngths from 48 to 52mm and base diameters from 10.7-12mm
For actual popgun loads on the 30-06, I have reloaded M1 Carbine bullets and 4227? powder that were around 1500fps so I could fire my Springfield all day long and not get beatup badly by itFood for another thread
All the machine gunners were trying to do was get bullets into a patch of ground to deny the enemy from transiting the area (reinforce, supply, retreat) not hit individual targets.Effective range should mean that something can be actually hit. 4000 yds with the M1 ammo is almost double the effective range of 'my' Czech 30mm against the ground tartgets, so I'd have the same drink that the man that can do 4000 yds drinks
Perhaps that had a lot to do with the lack of 6.5-7mm military cartridges (bar one-offs, small batches and experiments) in these countriesThe US and France and Germany and Britain had built 7.62-8mm boat tail bullets for machineguns. I don't know why they didn't do the same thing for the 6.5-7mm bore sizes,
6.5-7mm cartridges introduced by the big players in the 1930s is the food for another threadYou can make 6.5 bullets shoot just fine at long ranges, but you need the right rifling twist to do it and you need good bullets. Between the wars the .25 cal hunting rifles got a bad reputation in the US for accuracy. Many hunters are lucky they get the big end of the rifle on their shoulders let alone understand ballistics (either internal or external).
A bit to elaborate on this.
French - they introduced a new cartridge historically, without making a new tripod-mounted MG for it.
Not sure about this, the Americans had introduced the two different cartridges back in 1919 with the higher powered machine gun ammo vs the standard bolt action rifle ammo.Americans - less of the change than what was supposed to happen with the introduction of the .276 Pedersen.
Killing off the 8mm Breda kills off the Italian long range machine gun. The 7.35 was a terrible long range (or even medium range) round.Italians - no change vs. what happened historically, bar that a bit greater push is supposed to happen with the 7.35 mm. Kill off the 8mm Breda to help out.
They might have transition to the 7.9mm Mauser given enough time. They were not happy with the .303 in automatic guns.British - they introduced another RCMG cartridge in the late 1930s, creating the two cartridge situation without my help
Had they had the budget for it I am sure a new heavy machine gun would have been developed.
Of course.And the French 7.5 was in no way, shape or form a low powered cartridge.
I am sure that they were very serious about the Pedersen roundNot sure about this, the Americans had introduced the two different cartridges back in 1919 with the higher powered machine gun ammo vs the standard bolt action rifle ammo.
Killing off the 8mm Breda kills off the Italian long range machine gun.
Getting rid of the 8mm Breda would have been a benefit to the British/commonweath forces in NA.
They [British] were not happy with the .303 in automatic guns.
But it helps explain the lack of enthusiasm for the low powered 7-8mm rounds.6.5-7mm cartridges introduced by the big players in the 1930s is the food for another thread
The British were not happy with the .303 before WW I.Was that really the case?
The British were not happy with the .303 before WW I.
Just trying to get .303 to stack in magazines was problem (and using drums like the Lewis was more of a crutch than a good solution).