JoblinTheGoblin
Airman
- 79
- May 13, 2023
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Tiny thread jack, as long as you were here. Do you have any current shots of the "Saipan Zero"?Hi Joblin. While not directly related to the P-38, the stuff below seems relevant, at least to me, when talking about losses and kill ratios.
You have to define your terms quite carefully.
By way of example, take the F6F Hellcat in WWII:
1) The US Navy suffered 270 F6F losses to enemy aircraft in combat. The F6F shot down 1,445 bombers and 3,718 fighters for a total of 5,163 victories. That's a kill ratio of 19.12 : 1, usually quoted as 19-to-1 in "air-to-air combat."
2) We also lost 553 F6Fs to enemy AAA, though these were action sorties by definition, they were not air-to-air combat losses. An AAA guns sit on the ground; they don't fly. Fighter pilots can't dodge AAA rounds because, a) they can't see them coming, and b) if they could, the rounds come much faster than enemy airplanes do. Notice we lost about twice as many to AAA as to enemy airplanes.
3) We also lost 340 F6Fs on Operational flights when we saw no enemy but we engaged in partol or general fleet defense routine flying. Again, not air-to-air combat losses, non-action sorties.
4) We also lost 885 F6Fs on other flights, such as repositioning, deployment, moving between bases, etc. Again, not air-to-air combat flights and no enemy was encountered ... non-action sorties.
5) We lost 413 F6Fs on ship or gound when not in operation. That is, the F6Fs were on a ship that sank or when the F6F got consumed by fire or explosions aboard ship that was attacked or suffered an accident or was destroyed sitting still on the ground by enemy aircraft or some other way. These are not sorties, action or otherwise. They are aircraft lost when not actually flying. How do we account for these losses?
6) The total of all losses above is 2,461 as opposed to 270 lost in air-to-air combat against enemy airplanes. 2,461 losses against 5,163 victories is a kill-to-loss ratio of 2.1 : 1.
You COULD break out losses that happen only while flying and you get a number between 2.1 :1 amd 19.1 : 1 but, if you do, then you are mixing losses on action sorties with losses on non-action sorties. Should it count against that airplane's reputation if the pilot was stupid enough to run out of fuel and ditch in the ocean? What about if he forgot to use carb heat and wound up ditching due to carb ice or propeller failure of some sort, or an engine that packed it in during a maintenance flight?
Most people look at WWII losses against enemy airplanes versus combat victories, so the F6F has a ratio of 19.1 : 1.
But, depending on how you lump losses together, it could be as bad as 2.1 : 1.
As they say, you can make statistics say almost anything you want if you lie creatively enough ... caveat emptor. You need to look very carefully at how things are calculated to be sure what the numbers you see in print actually mean.
If a pilot has 3 aerial victories but has destroyed 5 of his own aircraft due to accidents or running out of fuel, is he a combat asset, an enemy ace, or what?
Personally, I look at aerial victories against losses in air-to-air combat with enemy airplanes. Operational losse are more related to the quality of the planning, maintenance, and general operation of the airplane than its combat reputation. AAA losses are more severe than most people think they are. Overall, in the US Navy during WWII, we lost 907 airplane to enemy aircraft while we lost 1,982 to AAA. That's 2 : 1 for losses due to AAA over losses due to enemy aircraft. Basically, 1/3 of all our action sortie losses were due to enemy airplanes and the other 2/3 was to AAA. So, we'd have had 2/3 of our actual losses even if we didn't lose a single aircraft to enemy fighters / bombers.
It's worth thinking about in some detail.
The numbers above came from Table 1, Naval Avation Combat Statistics World War II, OPNAV-P-23B, dated 17 Jun 1946, available online as a pdf file.
The definition of a "loss" is also fraught with difficulty, and is worthy of a dedicated thread. Just to scratch the surface, if a plane gets damaged in combat and is later flying home to the carrier when the engine catches fire due to an oil leak, and the pilot bails out, should that be classified an oprrational loss or a combat loss? What about if the airplane is damaged in combat and flies home and lands without incident, but is then later scrapped because the damage was too severe to repair. Is that a combat loss? Or did we scrap it beause we didn't have time and manpoower to fix it so we just pushed it over the side of the ship?
Again, things can happen that make classifying the event a tough decision.
Cheers!
Does anyone here own copies of Volumes 9 and 10 of the Pacific Profiles book series by Michael John Claringbould, or any other sources of information on the performance of the P-38, and of other advanced US fighters (other than the Osprey books on the topic, which I am familiar with), in air-to-air combat against Japanese fighters from late 1942 through early 1944, during the gradual loss of experienced pilots and decline in overall skill and experience on the Japanese side?
From the reviews of both books on Modelling Madness, the actual "kill ratio" of P-38s (and of the P-47), was just 1:1 against Japanese fighters, but I'm unsure of the reliability of their reliability, as Claringbould's Osprey-published book on the P-47's record against the Ki-43 over New Guinea provides a 2:1 ratio in favour of the P-47, and, though it's not the focus of the book, the Ki-61, and other Japanese fighter types for that matter, didn't appear to fare too well either, against both the P-47 and P-38.
I know that a user in this forum, Schweik, mentioned some of Claringbould's book series, including Pacific Profiles, in his thread on combat records, but it looks to have stalled early on, having never even covered the PTO, not to mention that said user is also banned.
Does anyone here own copies of Volumes 9 and 10 of the Pacific Profiles book series by Michael John Claringbould, or any other sources of information on the performance of the P-38, and of other advanced US fighters (other than the Osprey books on the topic, which I am familiar with), in air-to-air combat against Japanese fighters from late 1942 through early 1944, during the gradual loss of experienced pilots and decline in overall skill and experience on the Japanese side?
From the reviews of both books on Modelling Madness, the actual "kill ratio" of P-38s (and of the P-47), was just 1:1 against Japanese fighters, but I'm unsure of the reliability of their reliability, as Claringbould's Osprey-published book on the P-47's record against the Ki-43 over New Guinea provides a 2:1 ratio in favour of the P-47, and, though it's not the focus of the book, the Ki-61, and other Japanese fighter types for that matter, didn't appear to fare too well either, against both the P-47 and P-38.
I know that a user in this forum, Schweik, mentioned some of Claringbould's book series, including Pacific Profiles, in his thread on combat records, but it looks to have stalled early on, having never even covered the PTO, not to mention that said user is also banned.
Too late to be relevant to the topic at hand. Japanese pilot training and experience overall, by that point in time, had become infamously deficient, which, of course, complicates comparisons between Japanese and American fighter aircraft.A further complication to the " kill:loss ratio" is that many many planes (on both sides) changed (improved) over the 2-3 years in question. [...]
June 1944 sees the first P-38Ls being delivered (not in combat yet) with dive flaps, powered ailerons and 1600hp engines.
From what I've read, an eclectic mix of A6M2/3/5s was operating around Rabaul and the Solomons into early 1944. The A6M3 entered production in mid-1942, and the A6M2 was in service in the latter half of 1940, over a year before Pearl Harbour. The newer Ki-43-III didn't enter production until mid-1944, which is outside the scope of this discussion. It was instead the 'vintage' 1942 Ki-43-II that was in service with the IJAAF around that time.But the Japanese are not using 1942 Zeros or just 1942 Ki-43s either in 1944.
?Snip
It may have been an eclectic mix, but that does nothing for the Japanese trying to fly in formation. Trying to operate A6M2s with later model Zeros is a headache from a supply point of view. Different engines (2 speed superchargers and possibly different propellers or same hubs but different blades) and different 20mm guns requiring different ammo just for starters. The A6M5 entered production in Aug 1943. Early A6M2 production was slow and subject to refits/changes. The famous 15 Zeros used against the Soviets in Manchuria were a rushed pre-production batch. Zeros had several problems with the wings in 1940 and 1941 some of the modifications were not done at the breaks between models. In Early 1941 the Zeros (A6M2s) were restricted to a red line of 250kts and a 5 G limit on pull outs from dives while investigations into wing failures was carried out. In May 1941 they started increasing the wing skin thickness on the outer panels, Installing longitudinal stringers to increase torsional strength, Adding external balance weights on the Ailerons. The problem seemed to have started with the incorporation servo balancing tabs on the ailerons starting with airframe No.127. These were tried to correct poor aileron response at high speed. The 4th thing they did "fix" the problem was to stop fitting the balance tabs which did not reappear until A6M3 model 22. The Zeros that went to Pearl Harbor where pretty much the ones built from May to Nov 1941 with all of the improvements/approved modifications.From what I've read, an eclectic mix of A6M2/3/5s was operating around Rabaul and the Solomons into early 1944. The A6M3 entered production in mid-1942, and the A6M2 was in service in the latter half of 1940, over a year before Pearl Harbour.
The Ki-43-III is pretty much vapor ware. 10 (?)built? fewer than FW 152H models? Out of over 6000 Ki-43s built their impact on the war was microscopic. Yes it is the 'vintage' Ki-43-II that is part of this discussion. And 'Vintage' Ki-43-II only entered production in Nov 1942 after 5 prototypes and 3 (?) preproduction examples. Japanese were doing real good with early version or really missed the boat with needed a better plane than the Ki-43-II begin with?The newer Ki-43-III didn't enter production until mid-1944, which is outside the scope of this discussion. It was instead the 'vintage' 1942 Ki-43-II that was in service with the IJAAF around that time.
The former. The early, ≥1942 model A6Ms and Ki-43s managed to hold their own into 1944, especially with seasoned pilots at the controls.Japanese were doing real good with early version or really missed the boat with needed a better plane than the Ki-43-II begin with?
Good point, but I'm not sure how much that changes the apparent reality that the Corsair, Lightning, Hellcat and other advanced US fighters didn't perform so well against the supposedly obsolete Reisen and Hayabusa, especially the former.Now one thing about the Guadalcanal and Solomon's fighting was the extreme distances that were being flown. Minor damage that might have been 'survivable' over the Channel, In NA or in Russia might have resulted in a crash/loss when trying to stay in the air for 2 1/2 to 3 hours.
How about 1:1? And in the case of the Corsair, its performance in combat could get as bad as the latter ratio earlier on against better Japanese pilots.Call me crazy, but I'll take 2:1 over 1:2 any day of the week...
American claims are often taken at face value, and have been repeatedly mentioned across the entirety of the English-speaking WWII community, if not elsewhere, for decades.Handwringing about exorbitant claims (made by all sides, btw)...
I could see some later version of the A6M, or better yet, its student the A7M, make it to that year, given that the F4U was still in operation by the Korean War, with a jet kill to its name at that. The Ki-43 was still in service up to that year, albeit as an advanced trainer, and one example did engage P-51s in air-to-air combat in 1947, though it had just one little problem preventing it from shooting down any aircraft. Of course, it would have been unambiguously obsolete by then, but that would have been the case for any other fighter aircraft contemporaneous with it, including the aforementioned Corsair....I don't see anyone producing or flying Zeroes until 1952.
How about 1:1? And in the case of the Corsair, its performance in combat could get as bad as the latter ratio earlier on against better Japanese pilots.
American claims are often taken at face value, and have been repeatedly mentioned across the entirety of the English-speaking WWII community, if not elsewhere, for decades.
I could see some later version of the A6M, or better yet, its student the A7M, make it to that year, given that the F4U was still in operation by the Korean War, with a jet kill to its name at that. The Ki-43 was still in service up to that year, albeit as an advanced trainer, and one example did engage P-51s in air-to-air combat in 1947, though it had just one little problem preventing it from shooting down any aircraft. Of course, it would have been unambiguously obsolete by then, but that would have been the case for any other fighter aircraft contemporaneous with it, including the aforementioned Corsair.
I have a real problem with this statement.The former. The early, ≥1942 model A6Ms and Ki-43s managed to hold their own into 1944, especially with seasoned pilots at the controls.
I don't hold much stock in after WW II use. Too much depends on the actual air force and planes involved. As an example France was still using Hawk 75s (very few) as trainers into the early 50s. Any that had been built with Wright R-1820 engines had been repowered with P&WR-1830 engines. France had enough trouble paying for new combat jets, no money for training aircraft.The Ki-43 was still in service up to that year, albeit as an advanced trainer,