Rivet size range?

[Bozothenutter]

What would be the size range of rivets used in WW2?
Guessing 5 - 15 mm range?
Modelers question, just got a set if injection needles, smallest size is 0.15 mm.
So I'm guessing they can only be used for the larger sizes.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

What would be the size range of rivets used in WW2?
Guessing 5 - 15 mm range?
Modelers question, just got a set if injection needles, smallest size is 0.15 mm.
So I'm guessing they can only be used for the larger sizes.

What nationally of aircraft? What type of rivet?

 

[Wurger]

There is a tool for modellers called a riveter. There is plenty of them offered via the net. These are of different size and it is easy to fit any scale model. Just use the Google.

riveter for modellers - Google Search

 

[Bozothenutter]

What nationally of aircraft? What type of rivet?


View attachment 626252

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Awesome info!
German at the moment, so metric (countersunk I guess)
But Imperial will be needed as well.
Did notice that head size (what I mostly need) doesn't seem important enough to mention in most charts.
Looking into Dzus and Amal as well.

 

[cvairwerks]

Head dimensions are going to be found in the particular rivet specifications. In FlyboyJ's example, the MS20426 rivet has 1 set of head dimensions per shank size, with 9 possible material selections and 6 possible post production chemical coatings for each shank size and material.

Here's the MS20426 spec... MS20426 L RIVET SOLID COUNTERSUNK 100 DEG PRECISION HEAD
In this case, the spec is 5 pages of charts, drawings and notes on everything a designer or mechanic needs to select what rivet is needed at the time.

Now multiply this by a couple of hundred standard parts, and it's why one keeps specs on hand or know where to find them quickly. Even the lowly washer has multiple material callouts, multiple finishes and multiple thicknesses......Playing with this stuff, you get real familiar with the codes that you use all the time.

 

[Crimea_River]

de Havilland Drawing Office Standards:

 

[Bozothenutter]

de Havilland Drawing Office Standards:

Awesome!
Thank you very much!

 

[Bozothenutter]

.125 comes out at 0.066 mm in 1/48....smallest needle is 0.15...

 

[CAVU Mark]

On the wing root of the TBMs there are 1/4 inch diameter rivets. They are very difficult to rivet. If you visit the WWII Museum in New Orleans you will see my work. That plane was a fire bomber and we brought it back to display quality.

 

[MiTasol]

Head dimensions are going to be found in the particular rivet specifications. In FlyboyJ's example, the MS20426 rivet has 1 set of head dimensions per shank size, with 9 possible material selections and 6 possible post production chemical coatings for each shank size and material.

Here's the MS20426 spec... MS20426 L RIVET SOLID COUNTERSUNK 100 DEG PRECISION HEAD
In this case, the spec is 5 pages of charts, drawings and notes on everything a designer or mechanic needs to select what rivet is needed at the time.

Now multiply this by a couple of hundred standard parts, and it's why one keeps specs on hand or know where to find them quickly. Even the lowly washer has multiple material callouts, multiple finishes and multiple thicknesses......Playing with this stuff, you get real familiar with the codes that you use all the time.

And the MS specs do not cover many of the WW2 rivets like the Curtiss 87 degree rivets. Lockheed also used some weirdo sizes.

 

[MiTasol]

On the wing root of the TBMs there are 1/4 inch diameter rivets. They are very difficult to rivet. If you visit the WWII Museum in New Orleans you will see my work. That plane was a fire bomber and we brought it back to display quality.

Very nice.
PS how many times did you bang your head on that #$%^&* rail, top centre in the front cockpit. Jumping from type to type that rail gave me many a headache (and may account for my scrambled brains)

 

[cvairwerks]

And the MS specs do not cover many of the WW2 rivets like the Curtiss 87 degree rivets. Lockheed also used some weirdo sizes.

For those that don't get to play with specs much, most of the old AN specs were updated to MS specs in the 50's and 60's, or to other specs in the 70's-90's, if they were retained as working specs. Lots of them were invalidated for new manufacture in those time periods as well. In the case of the Curtis and Lockheed stuff, as well as Boeing, the specs are out there but requires some digging to find. Some of them were company specs that originally had no government spec, but within various repair manuals, approved substitutions are listed. There are some hardware interchange manuals out there too, I've used then to try and update some of the missing hardware for my L-5 project.

 

[MiTasol]

For those that don't get to play with specs much, most of the old AN specs were updated to MS specs in the 50's and 60's, or to other specs in the 70's-90's, if they were retained as working specs. Lots of them were invalidated for new manufacture in those time periods as well. In the case of the Curtis and Lockheed stuff, as well as Boeing, the specs are out there but requires some digging to find. Some of them were company specs that originally had no government spec, but within various repair manuals, approved substitutions are listed. There are some hardware interchange manuals out there too, I've used then to try and update some of the missing hardware for my L-5 project.

And many of the AC specs became AN specs with little or no change as well tho your L-5 will postdate most of those. Some of the fastener specs were only ever NAS - just to cause confusion.
Boeing quite recently had some real weird stuff as well - rivets with odd angles and heads - just to ensure maximum confusion. Same with screw heads - slot, Frearson, Read and Prince, Phillips, Torq, Torqset, Triwing, etc ..............................................................

 

[cvairwerks]

Yeah, it gets to be a pain chasing some of the data out there. It gets hard when specs are revamped, dropped or change categories within the Federal systems. Even harder is when it's an internal company spec and only valid for a particular aircraft series. For example, the bushings used in my Fairchild's wood structure, are defined by a Fairchild standard, but it only applies to the AT-21. The other company standard applies to the entire PT-19/23/26 series. I'm hoping that somewhere in the 9 rolls of microfilm for the AT, that standard is in there.

 

[Bozothenutter]

Thanks guys!
Not that much of rivet counter, but wanted to know what would be visible in scale.
For future builds I'l only do rivets towards the larger end of the spectrum.

 

[Tony Kambic]

Something I just came across and never knew, the Germans used 'explosive' rivets for blind riveting. They had a charge in them which when set off, expanded the far end to make a secure fit. I believe they were set off by heating the head.

 

[cvairwerks]

US manufacturers used them quite a bit too. Setting them was typically done by using a soldering copper to apply some pressure on the factory head and the necessary heat to make them set.

 

[cvairwerks]

Thanks guys!
Not that much of rivet counter, but wanted to know what would be visible in scale.
For future builds I'l only do rivets towards the larger end of the spectrum.

For fun, it you want to really challenge yourself, or alternately be humiliated, look up Dr Young C. Park and his models...

 

[thunderbird]

Of course, one also needs the specs that define manufacturing requirements as well. You'll find gap and other inspection requirements in the manufacturing specs. Typically, one would expect countersunk (flush) rivets to protrude .002-.005 inches full scale, with no visible gap around the head. At most, .0002 inches (two/ten thousandths of an inch ) at 1/32 scale, (seven/one-hundred-thousandths at 1/72 scale) Essentially invisible. But what fun would that be, to accurately portray the dimensions of external fasteners.