Russian aircraft parts, found in Spain

[gillescollaveri]

dear all,
I was contacted by someone who found A/C parts in Spain, in Taragone, South East of Ginestar.
Parts were found on the base of a local testimony.
The witness was young at that time and he remembers that :
- it was a biplane
- it was flying South East / Noth west
- there were two crew members, they were killed
- it was in August 1938
these parts have some marking :
"K2" on a an aluminium part, "
bAK" on an electrical wire shaft,
"123" on a portion of what seems to be a radial engine,
a cartridge 7.62 mm with marking "shKAS".
Can anyone help identify this aircraft ?
Thanks
Gilles

 

[Wurger]

If it is going to be a soviet two-seater biplane I would say that could be either the Polikarpov RZ Natacha or Polikarpov R-5.

 

[Juanita]

Are you able to check local newspapers from the time?

 

[bf109xxl]

If it is going to be a soviet two-seater biplane I would say that could be either the Polikarpov RZ Natacha or Polikarpov R-5.

Hmm... Although ShKASs were fitted to the R-Z and SSS, the part of the radial engine cylinder points more towards the I-16.

 

[Wurger]

Hmm... Although ShKASs were fitted to the R-Z and SSS, the part of the radial engine cylinder points more towards the I-16.

It was also my first thought as well. I thought about the I-15/I-15bis or I-153 as Gillescollaveri mantioned it was the biplane. Because of the wing shape the kites could be confused with a biplane by people who couldn't differentiate one type from the onother one. But again Gillescollaveri says ...

- there were two crew members, they were killed

So this excludes a single seater like the I-15/I-15bis/I-153 and I-16 that was the monoplane in addition.

 

[bf109xxl]

It was also my first thought as well. I thought about the I-15/I-15bis or I-153 as Gillescollaveri mantioned it was the biplane.

Either two I-16s collided, or this is not part of the finned cylinder of the radial engine, which is more likely. The I-15/I-15bis were armed with PV-1 MGs, the I-153 was not delivered to Spain.

 

[Wurger]

Either two I-16s collided, or this is not part of the finned cylinder of the radial engine, which is more likely. The I-15/I-15bis were armed with PV-1 MGs, the I-153 was not delivered to Spain.

Two I-16 collided .. humm ... you may be right. Regarding the PV-1 MG. IIRC the ealy varinats of the I-16 had the PV-1 MGs installed as well. Starting with I-16 Type 10 aircraft, just drawing on Spanish experience, it was decided to strengthen the armament. In connection with this, the 7.62 ShKAS machine guns were mounted. The ShKas machine gun was introduced in 1940 so it should be quite rare to find the MGs on the Spanish planes in 1938. Unless I'm wrong.

And one more thing ... the cartrige for the ShKas MG was actullay the Mossin one. To differentiate it from the ordinary rifle ammo it had the '"Ш" letter pressed at the bottom of the shell-case. I haven't seen any of the ShKas cartrige with the whole "ШКАС" marking.

 

[bf109xxl]

Regarding the PV-1 MG. IIRC the ealy varinats of the I-16 had the PV-1 MGs installed as well. Starting with I-16 Type 10 aircraft, just drawing on Spanish experience, it was decided to strengthen the armament. In connection with this, the 7.62 ShKAS machine guns were mounted. The ShKas machine gun was intriduced in 1940 so it should be quite rare to find the MGs on the Spanish planes in 1938. Unless I'm wrong.

The ShKAS were installed on I-16s from the very beginning - from type 4, on type 5 there were two ShKAS in the wing, initially there were numerous problems with them, but by 1935 most of them were eliminated. I-16 type 5 from Bryansk were the first to get to Spain, they were fitted with ShKAS. Type 10s were fitted with two additional ShKAS based on the Spanish experience.

And one more thing ... the cartrige for the ShKas MG was actullay the Mossin one. To differentiate it from the ordinary rifle ammo it had the '"Ш" letter pressed at the bottom of the shell-case. I haven't seen any of the ShKas cartrige with the whole "ШКАС" marking.

 

[Wurger]

The ShKAS were installed on I-16s from the very beginning - from type 4, on type 5 there were two ShKAS in the wing, initially there were numerous problems with them, but by 1935 most of them were eliminated. I-16 type 5 from Bryansk were the first to get to Spain, they were fitted with ShKAS. Type 10s were fitted with two additional ShKAS based on the Spanish experience.

View attachment 836007
View attachment 836008

OK. According to the russian sources the ShKas MGs were installed with the I-16 type 4 in 1935. Earlier there were the two PV-1 MGs. Also the marking on the cartrige is correct. The the '"Ш" letter pressed at the bottom of the shell-case can be noticed ( usually at the 9 o'clock location ) . The full name "ШКАС" was printed on the wooden boxes with the cartriges packed in the metal cans. Additionally there was printed a sign of a propeller painted either black or red depending on the ammo that could be used either for the synchronized MGs or not in sync ones.

Anyway your idea of the collided two I-16 sounds good.

 

[bf109xxl]

Anyway your idea of the collided two I-16 sounds good.

I've seen mention of two I-15s colliding, but I never heard about the loss of two _Soviet_ I-16 pilots in the collision, perhaps Spanish-language sources are more informative about Spanish pilot losses. The version that the finned part is not from a radial motor cylinder seems more probable to me.

PS. Thanks for the translation!

 

[gillescollaveri]

I guess that more information gathered on site could help.
I shall ask my contact to try to know more locally, get precisions and I shall let you know the results;
Thanks for your inputs , guys
Gilles

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

This weekend will try to search vol 3 of my books about the spanish republic air forces and tell you what I can find

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

A fast search only note one action by R-5 or R-Z in august 1938 some where nor or less the crash site, on 23rd. No losses reported. By then they were used mainly as coastal patrol aircraft.

Due a misunterdaning I only search for 2 twin seat aircraft crash, one been reported on october 2nd of 2 Delfines (Grumman FF) CD-001 and CD-005, most probably due bad weather.

IMO, the R-5 or R-Z can be discarded if the crash was in august, as the Grummans (no news about arming them with ShKAS, but in despertate times you never know for sure and bookeeping wasn't a priority then for sure).

Will look for two I-16 colliding.

G gillescollaveri anything mew from your contact?

 

[bf109xxl]

Will look for two I-16 colliding.

Thank you for your efforts! I'm curious about any details.

 

[gillescollaveri]

Thank you for your efforts! I'm curious about any details.

as soon as I get some feedback from my contact I let you know;
I cross fingers that he can obtain more info.
Gilles