Sakai Saburo Vs Sugita Sho-ichi

CHen10 · Oct 17, 2024

Not sure how well known this is, but two Japanese aces Sakai Saburo and Sugita Sho-ichi actually greatly disliked each other with Sugita outright hating Sakai.

Their feud started in the 343rd Kokutai:

Sakai, who was in charge of training, gave lectures on aerial combat, but they were not well received by the young people who had experienced fierce battles. They were merely old stories, and his frequent use of violence also drew resentment. Sakai would physically discipline his students. Sugita disliked using harsh discipline on his juniors and had a caring and gentle personality, so he disliked Sakai for this. Sakai also called all the pilots younger than him "Jaku" (inexperienced), and Sugita further clashed with Sakai, saying:

"Sakai only knew the time when the enemy was still weak. It was much harder after Sakai was gone."

However there are two more episodes

Sugita criticized Sakai's story about being injured over Guadalcanal saying "If a Zero fighter is properly maintained and adjusted, even if you let go of it, it will repeatedly ascend and descend, and eventually return to level flight. There is no way that a Zero fighter will lose consciousness and go into an inverted position and continue to fly like that. Besides, how can someone who is unconscious talk about the details of the situation?"

He also publicly declared, "I'm going to punch anyone (Sakai) who says something so dishonest."

Flight commander Major Yoshio Shiga was troubled by the explosive situation, so he decided to leave Sugita, who could be used in aerial combat, and to transfer Sakai to the Yokosuka Air Group, whose mission was flight experiments, in exchange for Kaneyoshi Muto , in order to make use of his experience.

Sakai also called Kanno Naoshi weak and a bad pilot because of Kanno's younger age and the fact he graduated from the naval academy. Kanno was the leader of the 301st Hikotai of the 343rd Kokutai and Sakai said that Iwamoto Tetsuzo should be the leader and not Kanno. Sugita was a close friend of Kanno and when he heard what Sakai said, he became so enraged that people feared he would "beat Sakai to death"

What are people's thoughts on this?

Information comes from here:

View: https://youtu.be/DtcicO3wp6g?si=1EmRvANP6T1t28Ic
And the book "My Grandfathers' Zero Fighters"

"My Grandfathers' Zero Fighters" p329-330

"My Grandfathers' Zero Fighters" p330-331

ThomasP · Oct 18, 2024

re

CHen10 said:
Sugita criticized Sakai's story about being injured over Guadalcanal saying "If a Zero fighter is properly maintained and adjusted, even if you let go of it, it will repeatedly ascend and descend, and eventually return to level flight. There is no way that a Zero fighter will lose consciousness and go into an inverted position and continue to fly like that. Besides, how can someone who is unconscious talk about the details of the situation?"

Any time someone receives a severe head injury it is possible for the injured person to become 'confused'. An extremely severe head injury such as Sakai suffered is pretty much guaranteed to cause several symptoms - ie loss of memory, scattershot memory, disorientation (ie confusion as to what is up and down - often confused with simple 'dizziness'), confusion as to time, sequence of events, etc. Sometimes, when injuries are so severe, much of what occurs afterward will seem like a bad dream (nightmare) and the injured person ends up trying to forget and/or suppress the memory(s) due to contradictions that he cannot resolve, and subsequently they may put together the best explanation they can to remove the confusion - sometimes generating a 'false' memory to allow their brain to narrate the traumatic event(s).

Also, some parts of the brain may function normally, while others have problems or fail entirely.

Basically, the part of the brain that deals with things like flying an airplane may be perfectly functional while the part of the brain that generates continuous coherent memory is malfunctioning. Sometimes this is due to interrupted bloodflow (due to damage to blood vessels) or due to swelling of the surrounding tissues (that may cause intermittent blood flow or reduced oxygen supply), and sometimes due to chemical changes due to the extremity of the situation resulting in abnormal levles of adrenaline or other chemicals (aka neurochemicals) that can affect/interfere with the normal creation of memories and other functions of the brain.

It is entirely possible that Sakai thought he was flying upside down when he was actually flying upright, or it may be that at some point he ended up flying upside down and thought that he was flying upright and corrected the trim of the airplane to maintain level flight while upside down - and subsequently corrected his orientation and simply did not form the memories needed to correctly interpret what had happened. He may then have recovered enough awareness that he realized he was upside down and righted himself. Injuries to the optic system often cause the optical network to temporarily lose the ability to perform its normal function of interpreting the upright orientation of the input from the eye (the incoming light/image as it is focused on the retina is actually upside down in terms of spacial coordination - the computer that is your brain then takes the input from the retina and turns it 'right-side up').

Thumpalumpacus · Oct 18, 2024

CHen10 said:
Sugita criticized Sakai's story about being injured over Guadalcanal saying "If a Zero fighter is properly maintained and adjusted, even if you let go of it, it will repeatedly ascend and descend, and eventually return to level flight. There is no way that a Zero fighter will lose consciousness and go into an inverted position and continue to fly like that. Besides, how can someone who is unconscious talk about the details of the situation?"

Not that I put much stock in Sakai's memoir, co-written with Martin Caidin, but I'd just say that it's pretty bold for someone who wasn't there to run critique on someone who was. It's kinda like the old musician's joke:

Q: How many lead guitarists does it take to change a light-bulb?
A: Ten. One to change the bulb, and nine to say how they could have done it better.

That's nice until you're on-stage front and center.

Also, I think if a Zero was shot up, it might not be so forgiving as to return to straight-and-level.

CHen10 · Oct 18, 2024

Thumpalumpacus said:
Not that I put much stock in Sakai's memoir, co-written with Martin Caidin, but I'd just say that it's pretty bold for someone who wasn't there to run critique on someone who was. It's kinda like the old musician's joke:

Q: How many lead guitarists does it take to change a light-bulb?
A: Ten. One to change the bulb, and nine to say how they could have done it better.

That's nice until you're on-stage front and center.

Also, I think if a Zero was shot up, it might not be so forgiving as to return to straight-and-level.

You are right about Caidin's book being unreliable, with some of the things being bold faced lies. However, even though Sugita Sho-ichi wasn't at Rabaul at the time, there aren't many better Zero pilots than Sugita or pilots that know as much about the Zero as him. Sugita had more kills than Sakai and they were against tougher opponents than Sakai's opponents. Basically Sugita's assessment of how a Zero performs is reliable in my opinion.

CHen10 · Oct 18, 2024

ThomasP said:
re

Any time someone receives a severe head injury it is possible for the injured person to become 'confused'. An extremely severe head injury such as Sakai suffered is pretty much guaranteed to cause several symptoms - ie loss of memory, scattershot memory, disorientation (ie confusion as to what is up and down - often confused with simple 'dizziness'), confusion as to time, sequence of events, etc. Sometimes, when injuries are so severe, much of what occurs afterward will seem like a bad dream (nightmare) and the injured person ends up trying to forget and/or suppress the memory(s) due to contradictions that he cannot resolve, and subsequently they may put together the best explanation they can to remove the confusion - sometimes generating a 'false' memory to allow their brain to narrate the traumatic event(s).

Also, some parts of the brain may function normally, while others have problems or fail entirely.

Basically, the part of the brain that deals with things like flying an airplane may be perfectly functional while the part of the brain that generates continuous coherent memory is malfunctioning. Sometimes this is due to interrupted bloodflow (due to damage to blood vessels) or due to swelling of the surrounding tissues (that may cause intermittent blood flow or reduced oxygen supply), and sometimes due to chemical changes due to the extremity of the situation resulting in abnormal levles of adrenaline or other chemicals (aka neurochemicals) that can affect/interfere with the normal creation of memories and other functions of the brain.

It is entirely possible that Sakai thought he was flying upside down when he was actually flying upright, or it may be that at some point he ended up flying upside down and thought that he was flying upright and corrected the trim of the airplane to maintain level flight while upside down - and subsequently corrected his orientation and simply did not form the memories needed to correctly interpret what had happened. He may then have recovered enough awareness that he realized he was upside down and righted himself. Injuries to the optic system often cause the optical network to temporarily lose the ability to perform its normal function of interpreting the upright orientation of the input from the eye (the incoming light/image as it is focused on the retina is actually upside down in terms of spacial coordination - the computer that is your brain then takes the input from the retina and turns it 'right-side up').

This is very interesting and some of the scenarios described here could be correct

Thumpalumpacus · Oct 18, 2024

CHen10 said:
You are right about Caidin's book being unreliable, with some of the things being bold faced lies. However, even though Sugita Sho-ichi wasn't at Rabaul at the time, there aren't many better Zero pilots than Sugita or pilots that know as much about the Zero as him. Sugita had more kills than Sakai and they were against tougher opponents than Sakai's opponents. Basically Sugita's assessment of how a Zero performs is reliable in my opinion.

Perhaps, but did he fly a damaged Zero while nursing a serious head-wound? What's his experience in that? Talk is cheap.

I don't know the truth of Sakai's account. What experience does Sugita have that he might judge that veracity?

CHen10 · Oct 18, 2024

Thumpalumpacus said:
Perhaps, but did he fly a damaged Zero while nursing a serious head-wound? What's his experience in that? Talk is cheap.

I don't know the truth of Sakai's account. What experience does Sugita have that he might judge that veracity?

Sugita was once wounded and burnt badly in a Zero and he eventually bailed out. So that could count as flying a Zero with bad wounds.

tyrodtom · Oct 18, 2024

CHen10 said:
Sugita was once wounded and burnt badly in a Zero and he eventually bailed out. So that could count as flying a Zero with bad wounds.

But Sakai flew about 600 miles badly injured, and landed, Sugita got wounded, burned, and "eventually " bailed out.
It sounds like not quite similar situations, but you seem to consider them the same.

In every situation considering personality conflicts there are three sides.
1-What one person says.
2-What the other says happened.
3-What a disinterested person observing it would say.
And sometimes what actually happened is not the same as the first three.

CHen10 · Oct 18, 2024

tyrodtom said:
But Sakai flew about 600 miles badly injured, and landed, Sugita got wounded, burned, and "eventually " bailed out.
It sounds like not quite similar situations, but you seem to consider them the same.

In every situation considering personality conflicts there are three sides.
1-What one person says.
2-What the other says happened.
3-What a disinterested person observing it would say.
And sometimes what actually happened is not the same as the first three.

What we know for certain is that Sakai was wounded and his Zero was damaged but the exact details of his 600 mile journey back to Rabaul aren't known for certain. Sakai's trauma could have affected his memory of the event for example.

CHen10 · Oct 18, 2024

tyrodtom said:
In every situation considering personality conflicts there are three sides.
1-What one person says.
2-What the other says happened.
3-What a disinterested person observing it would say.
And sometimes what actually happened is not the same as the first three.

For the personality conflict:

1. Sakai would say or do something
2. The other person (Sugita) would become angry at what Sakai said or did
3. It would be interesting to see what a neutral person's opinion here would be

Thumpalumpacus · Oct 18, 2024

CHen10 said:
Sugita was once wounded and burnt badly in a Zero and he eventually bailed out. So that could count as flying a Zero with bad wounds.

600 miles? Head wound?

It's easy to run critique when you weren't there.

CHen10 · Oct 18, 2024

CHen10 said:
View:
View: https://youtu.be/DtcicO3wp6g?si=1EmRvANP6T1t28Ic

I would also recommend that everyone watch this video about Sakai. It's in Japanese but you can auto translate the captions on YouTube.

It discusses the many famous incidents with Sakai and analyses the validity of them.

CHen10 · Oct 18, 2024

Thumpalumpacus said:
600 miles? Head wound?

It's easy to run critique when you weren't there.

Of course Sugita didn't fly 600 miles or have a head wound but that was at least an example of him suffering wounds in a Zero. Sugita's statement is also probably influenced by the fact he already disliked Sakai. Since he already disliked Sakai, criticising his story of being wounded isn't that surprising.

Thumpalumpacus · Oct 18, 2024

CHen10 said:
Of course Sugita didn't fly 600 miles or have a head wound but that was at least an example of him suffering wounds in a Zero. Sugita's statement is also probably influenced by the fact he already disliked Sakai. Since he already disliked Sakai, criticising his story of being wounded isn't that surprising.

"Walk a mile in his moccasins ..."

AerialTorpedoDude69 · Oct 19, 2024

CHen10 said:
Sakai also called Kanno Naoshi weak and a bad pilot because of Kanno's younger age and the fact he graduated from the naval academy. Kanno was the leader of the 301st Hikotai of the 343rd Kokutai and Sakai said that Iwamoto Tetsuzo should be the leader and not Kanno. Sugita was a close friend of Kanno and when he heard what Sakai said, he became so enraged that people feared he would "beat Sakai to death"

That is interesting. My memory is hazy but was it Kanno whose inexperience led to his squad trying to intercept P-47s at high altitude IIRC (we spoke about this earlier)? On the other hand, Iwamoto was the top ace of both the IJN and IJA (and all sides) for the Pacific War and the China War. It's weird he wasn't in the 343rd to begin with. Do you know if there was a reason why he wasn't selected to replace Kanno or any other of the officers who were KIA? Maybe because I don't think Iwamoto ever flew the Shiden? Which may have been a good thing as it proved to be difficult to transition to. There were very few pilots who made ace in that thing.

Thumpalumpacus said:
Perhaps, but did he fly a damaged Zero while nursing a serious head-wound? What's his experience in that? Talk is cheap.

I don't know the truth of Sakai's account. What experience does Sugita have that he might judge that veracity?

Sugita was one of the only a few pilots who could criticize Sakai. He had around the same number of aerial victories (Sakai didn't really keep count according to non-Caidin sources) and he was shot down in a Zero and had serious burns which he spent months recovering from.

I think more importantly, Sugita was one of the few pilots who graduated flight school in 1943 and didn't get slaughtered. I think Takeo Tanimizu was another as was Kanno. Sugita had real experience fighting against the latest tactics used by skilled pilots in the latest machines. He did have superior experience to Sakai. Although not in head injuries. Regarding the Zero's ability to fly straight and level, all aircraft are designed in that way, but without their canopy on? It's likely that without the canopy, it was no longer aerodynamically stable. He mentioned in his autobiography that the plane did not fly straight (IIRC) and he had to fight the control column on the grueling 600 mile return flight, while at the same time using the leanest possible fuel mix to keep from running out of fuel. IIRC, he had set some kind of world record when attacking Clark airfield. So he definitely knew something about

I totally agree with T ThomasP . Sakai had a serious TBI and probably PTSD, which is common among head trauma survivors due to the impact that TBIs have on sleep quality (PTSD is straight up caused by disrupted sleep). PTSD explains his violence toward trainee pilots (which was common among Japanese instructors but Sakai was apparently worse than normal).

Thumpalumpacus · Oct 19, 2024

AerialTorpedoDude69 said:
Although not in head injuries. Regarding the Zero's ability to fly straight and level, all aircraft are designed in that way, but without their canopy on? It's likely that without the canopy, it was no longer aerodynamically stable. He mentioned in his autobiography that the plane did not fly straight (IIRC) and he had to fight the control column on the grueling 600 mile return flight, while at the same time using the leanest possible fuel mix to keep from running out of fuel. IIRC, he had set some kind of world record when attacking Clark airfield. So he definitely knew something about

That's really my point. It's pretty churlish to sit in judgement of someone who's literally been shot in the face and having to pilot a damaged a/c 600 miles home. Not to belittle Sugita's injuries, but it just isn't the same. And Sugita isn't flying Sakai's damaged bird, doesn't know how it balances or levels. It looks like a combination of personal anmius and retrospectroscope to me.

CHen10 · Oct 19, 2024

AerialTorpedoDude69 said:
That is interesting. My memory is hazy but was it Kanno whose inexperience led to his squad trying to intercept P-47s at high altitude IIRC (we spoke about this earlier)? On the other hand, Iwamoto was the top ace of both the IJN and IJA (and all sides) for the Pacific War and the China War. It's weird he wasn't in the 343rd to begin with. Do you know if there was a reason why he wasn't selected to replace Kanno or any other of the officers who were KIA? Maybe because I don't think Iwamoto ever flew the Shiden? Which may have been a good thing as it proved to be difficult to transition to. There were very few pilots who made ace in that thing.

Hi

AerialTorpedoDude69 Great to see you again!

For 28 May 1945

Kanno did not lead the N1K2s on 28 May against the P-47s. The leader that day was Oshibuchi Takashi who made the mistake of trying to maintain altitude advantage over the P-47s which eventually led to the dogfight taking place at high altitude. If Kanno had been leading that day, I think things would be much different because Kanno had a reckless style where he just attacked without waiting and so this would be an advantage since if he attacked the P-47s straight away, he would have attacked at low altitude giving the Shiden Kais much better odds.

Kanno makes sense to pick as a squadron leader since he was very experienced and had 25 confirmed kills. As for why Iwamoto wasn't in the 343rd Kokutai, he was with the 203rd Kokutai at the time, so I'm assuming the IJN wanted him to stay there.

AerialTorpedoDude69 said:
Sugita was one of the only a few pilots who could criticize Sakai. He had around the same number of aerial victories (Sakai didn't really keep count according to non-Caidin sources) and he was shot down in a Zero and had serious burns which he spent months recovering from.

Sugita had 70 confirmed kills whereas Sakai had 28 confirmed kills. Taking into account the usual overclaiming, their scores would be less than that, but Sugita would definitely have a lot more kills than Sakai. The idea that Sakai had 64 kills is a myth by Caidin to increase book sales since it's the same number of opponents killed by the medieval Samurai Musashi Miyamoto. It was used as a marketing scheme to say that Sakai is just like Musashi who was a famous Samurai and the book by Caidin is called "Samurai!" Sakai himself admitted this and he never personally claimed he had 64.

Source is My Grandfather's Zero Fighters pg.321

AerialTorpedoDude69 said:
I think more importantly, Sugita was one of the few pilots who graduated flight school in 1943 and didn't get slaughtered. I think Takeo Tanimizu was another as was Kanno. Sugita had real experience fighting against the latest tactics used by skilled pilots in the latest machines. He did have superior experience to Sakai.

Fully agree. While Sakai is a good fighter pilot, Sugita is on another level. Sugita fought modern US aircraft whereas Sakai fought early war US aircraft.

CHen10 · Oct 19, 2024

Thumpalumpacus said:
That's really my point. It's pretty churlish to sit in judgement of someone who's literally been shot in the face and having to pilot a damaged a/c 600 miles home. Not to belittle Sugita's injuries, but it just isn't the same. And Sugita isn't flying Sakai's damaged bird, doesn't know how it balances or levels. It looks like a combination of personal anmius and retrospectroscope to me.

It was insensitive for Sugita to say that, but since he already disliked Sakai and he heard a story by Sakai which sounded like a lie based on his knowledge and experience, it's not that surprising he made that comment.

Thumpalumpacus · Oct 19, 2024

CHen10 said:
It was insensitive for Sugita to say that, but since he already disliked Sakai and he heard a story by Sakai which sounded like a lie based on his knowledge and experience, it's not that surprising he made that comment.

Sure, it's understandable. It's still not excusable.

CHen10 · Oct 19, 2024

Thumpalumpacus said:
Sure, it's understandable. It's still not excusable.

I personally disagree here. Sugita criticised Sakai's story with logic and his own experience. He is entitled to say his view since he isn't just saying it's a lie for no reason. He explains his view. It can come across as insensitive, but for me, he is entitled to say it.

As for my opinion, I am somewhere in the middle. I do believe Sakai may have misremembered some of the events due to trauma but I also believe Sugita is incorrect for calling it a complete lie. So I agree with Sakai that the event definitely happened, but I agree with Sugita in that some parts sound too far fetched

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