SCAPEGOATS!

[FLYBOYJ]

Controller bantering about dead cat before crash - Yahoo! News

The media continues to hammer this story about the Hudson River crash. In reality I can't see how the controller was responsible since he handed the traffic off to Newark and was no longer responsible for that traffic as it was out of his airspace. He could have been on the radio or chatting with a phone sex operator, it would not have made a difference.

People died, someone has to be blamed! Here comes the FAA!

Right from the article...

"At 11:52 and 20 seconds, the controller instructed the plane to contact air traffic control at nearby Newark Liberty International Airport, which is part of the procedure for handing off oversight of the small plane."

The FAA = The efficiency of the US Post Office combined with the compassion of the IRS.

 

[ToughOmbre]

The FAA is as bad as the US Navy used to be (still is?) with regard to finding scapegoats!

TO

 

[GrauGeist]

So, the ATC was trying to alert the aicraft to the situation, but was not recieving any responses...

It's also up to the pilot to be aware of thier surroundings and to maintain radio contact.

Looks to me like it doesn't matter if the ATC was on the phone before this happened, or if they got a new paint job on thier car the day before, they're still going to try and nail them for the pilot error...

 

[pbfoot]

I'm not familiar with how the VMC route works on the Hudson but if its anything like the published route for sightseeing aircraft here its an accident waiting to happen ,it was only after 2 helos collided with loss of life about 10 years ago that the FAA and Canadian MOT got together to publish the route and altitudes but still no one pays heed . Today alone an F16 and the CWH Lanc going in opposite directions with what looked like IMHO about 500ft verticle

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I'm not familiar with how the VMC route works on the Hudson but if its anything like the published route for sightseeing aircraft here its an accident waiting to happen ,it was only after 2 helos collided with loss of life about 10 years ago that the FAA and Canadian MOT got together to publish the route and altitudes but still no one pays heed . Today alone an F16 and the CWH Lanc going in opposite directions with what looked like IMHO about 500ft verticle

There is no low level VFR corridor in that area of the Hudson. Basically the aircraft was cleared to take off from Teterboro and as he turned to the south east, the Teterboro controller told him - "Piper XXX, contact Newark Tower at 1XX.XX. Now you were a controller, and you tell me once you turn and aircraft loose who's responsibility is if for VFR navigation? As a matter of fact I believe that ATC is only required to give VFR separation as a courtesy, providing their work load allows it.

This is a very congested piece of sky and the utmost vigilance must be observed when flying there. The fact that the Piper never acknowledged that he was supposed to change frequencies to Newark tells me that pilot was distracted or had some other issue. The only fault I could see here is perhaps the controller not continuing to ensure that the Piper pilot knew he had to change frequencies. Perhaps this should be a mandatory "repeat back" as is waiting at the hold line. In either case the FAA is looking to hang someone and the sensationalism driven media is fueling the fire.

 

[Vassili Zaitzev]

Interesting, the pilot did not respond to the radio calls from the ATC. Unfortunately, I feel the media's just going to focus on this case, and nothing else about the crash. Reminds me of another incident. Bashkirian Airlines Flight 2937 DHL Flight 611 mid-air collision - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The ATC at the time was working two workstations at the same time, and the phonelines he was using were faulty.

 

[pbfoot]

There is no low level VFR corridor in that area of the Hudson. Basically the aircraft was cleared to take off from Teterboro and as he turned to the south east, the Teterboro controller told him - "Piper XXX, contact Newark Tower at 1XX.XX. Now you were a controller, and you tell me once you turn and aircraft loose who's responsibility is if for VFR navigation? As a matter of fact I believe that ATC is only required to give VFR separation as a courtesy, providing their work load allows it.

This is a very congested piece of sky and the utmost vigilance must be observed when flying there. The fact that the Piper never acknowledged that he was supposed to change frequencies to Newark tells me that pilot was distracted or had some other issue. The only fault I could see here is perhaps the controller not continuing to ensure that the Piper pilot knew he had to change frequencies. Perhaps this should be a mandatory "repeat back" as is waiting at the hold line. In either case the FAA is looking to hang someone and the sensationalism driven media id fueling the fire.

I believe they are chastising the controller for making a personal call while on the board

, in Toronto they work 2hrs on 2 off and would think that NYC would be the same if not less , they are probably thinking hes got 2 hours off to do personal stuff

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I believe they are chastising the controller for making a personal call while on the board

I guess the latest is this really wasn't a personal call but an unnecessary call to report a dead cat on the premises.

Again, the Feds are really digging deep to hang this guy.

 

[RabidAlien]

Holy crap, even if they don't find enough to hang him with (and if he's innocent, frikkin quit houndin the guy!), the stigma of this incident is gonna follow him for a looooooooooong time.

 

[ccheese]

Should be an interesting story to watch. Too bad an ATC guy has to pay because some pilot wasn't watching where he
was going.

Charles

 

[syscom3]

My neighbor is a retired ATC. She said they should hang those two guys just out of principle.

One for using a cell phone while on duty.

The other for leaving the building without authorization.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

My neighbor is a retired ATC. She said they should hang those two guys just out of principle.

One for using a cell phone while on duty.

The other for leaving the building without authorization.

There is a definite disciplinary action warranted but neither one contributed to this accident. Bottom line the Piper was "handed off" to another controller - end of story.

 

[pbfoot]

There is a definite disciplinary action warranted but neither one contributed to this accident. Bottom line the Piper was "handed off" to another controller - end of story.

Unless I hear differently the pilots are guilty particularly the chump in the Piper I fear though that this airspace will have to change to "controlled"

 

[GrauGeist]

Well, I'm curious as to how the Helo pilot was conducting his takeoff.

If he wasn't indicated on the two tower's radars, did he climb at a rapid rate and/or was he ascending at a steep incline?

Surely from the ground, he (the helo pilot) could look up and down the VFR corridor and check for traffic...and if the plane veered at the last few seconds before impact, that may indicate he (aircraft pilot) realized at the last moment that something was beneath. At level flight, the airplane pilot should have been able to see traffic that was relatively close ahead or even somewhat below at a greater distance.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Unless I hear differently the pilots are guilty particularly the chump in the Piper I fear though that this airspace will have to change to "controlled"

Yes, or at least make a VFR coridor to seperate the helicopter operations from fixed wing aircraft.

Well, I'm curious as to how the Helo pilot was conducting his takeoff.

If he wasn't indicated on the two tower's radars, did he climb at a rapid rate and/or was he ascending at a steep incline?

Surely from the ground, he (the helo pilot) could look up and down the VFR corridor and check for traffic...and if the plane veered at the last few seconds before impact, that may indicate he (aircraft pilot) realized at the last moment that something was beneath. At level flight, the airplane pilot should have been able to see traffic that was relatively close ahead or even somewhat below at a greater distance.

A low wing aircraft does have a blind spot from below because of the wings. By in congested airspace like over the Hudson, it might have been a good idea to fly your heading while executing gentle banks scanning for traffic. At the same time I do know the A Star has no visibility from the rear so it was a matter of both pilots scanning and flying a course where the blind spots of their aircraft could be dealt with, obviously this didn't happen.

 

[gumbyk]

Flyboyj, I'm not usre how it is up there, but here in NZ, change of frequency is a mandatory read-back of hte clearance, and unitl that happens, the hand-over isn't complete. So, the fixed-wing pilot was still under the control of teterboro, assuming htat these rules are consistent. Can anyone confirm this with the FAA rules?

Also, I heard that this corridor is uncontrolled, what was he changing to Newark tower for? Shouldn't he have been on the common frequency for the corridor?

But, still, the final responsibility for VFR 'see and avoid' rests on teh pilots of both aircraft. From the footage that I have seen, it looks to me like the helicopter was climbing and climbed into the Piper. I, personally doubt how effective 'S' turns would have been in helping the pilot of the Piper to see the A-Star.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Flyboyj, I'm not usre how it is up there, but here in NZ, change of frequency is a mandatory read-back of hte clearance, and unitl that happens, the hand-over isn't complete. So, the fixed-wing pilot was still under the control of teterboro, assuming htat these rules are consistent. Can anyone confirm this with the FAA rules?

I tried to look around for this but cannot find anything on readback in this situation, but at the same time the Piper was out of Teterboro's airspace and no longer the controller's responsibility.

Also, I heard that this corridor is uncontrolled, what was he changing to Newark tower for? Shouldn't he have been on the common frequency for the corridor?

No - there is actually no VFR corridor in this area and Newark's airspace does go over this area. It is likely that the Piper's flight path was entering Newark's airspace.

But, still, the final responsibility for VFR 'see and avoid' rests on teh pilots of both aircraft. From the footage that I have seen, it looks to me like the helicopter was climbing and climbed into the Piper. I, personally doubt how effective 'S' turns would have been in helping the pilot of the Piper to see the A-Star.

Perhaps, the Piper would have had an opportunity to see the A Star had he approached the area in a slight bank eliminating part of the blind spot from the wing. I've done this when flying low wing Pipers and T-34s in and around the LA basin and it does work, however in this situation it going to be really hard to speculate.

 

[gumbyk]

No - there is actually no VFR corridor in this area and Newark's airspace does go over this area. It is likely that the Piper's flight path was entering Newark's airspace.

aah, that makes sense now.

 

[pbfoot]

I can't ever recall a demand for a readback on freq change on a VMC flight it was usually good bye have a nice trip. (and after releasing the foot pedal) please try and not interrupt the hearts game again

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I can't ever recall a demand for a readback on freq change on a VMC flight it was usually good bye have a nice trip. (and after releasing the foot pedal) please try and not interrupt the hearts game again