Ship and aircraft build time

[Thorlifter]

In WW2 the U.S. was able to produce ships at astonishing speed. Liberty ships were built on average every 42 days. One was built in a record 4 1/2 days. I think destroyers were built in about 10 months (I may be wrong on that). So how fast do you think the U.S. could build navy ships today if the need was dire compared to how long it normally takes?

What about aircraft? The U.S. was producing about 90 aircraft a day at its peak. The F-22 takes 2-4 months to make according to websites I see. How fast could those be turned around under the same scenario?

 

[cvairwerks]

In WW2 the U.S. was able to produce ships at astonishing speed. Liberty ships were built on average every 42 days. One was built in a record 4 1/2 days. I think destroyers were built in about 10 months (I may be wrong on that). So how fast do you think the U.S. could build navy ships today if the need was dire compared to how long it normally takes?

What about aircraft? The U.S. was producing about 90 aircraft a day at its peak. The F-22 takes 2-4 months to make according to websites I see. How fast could those be turned around under the same scenario?

The F-22 took way longer than 4 months to build.....We took parts delivery many months before being loaded into jigs. Shipping the fuselage sections to Georgia for final assembly took most of a week by itself. Even at the height of high rate production, an F-16 took over a year from first metal cut to delivery.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

In WW2 the U.S. was able to produce ships at astonishing speed. Liberty ships were built on average every 42 days. One was built in a record 4 1/2 days. I think destroyers were built in about 10 months (I may be wrong on that). So how fast do you think the U.S. could build navy ships today if the need was dire compared to how long it normally takes?

What about aircraft? The U.S. was producing about 90 aircraft a day at its peak. The F-22 takes 2-4 months to make according to websites I see. How fast could those be turned around under the same scenario?

The Liberty ship build time is a bit of a myth. Large assemblies were fabricated off site. The actual time from raw steel to completed fit out was much longer. It actually required more total man hours than the traditional methods used by the British to produce the same ship. What prefabrication did do was free up slips much more quickly.

 

[special ed]

Today, where is the labor force? No one wants to work, even if a national emergency exists.

 

[Shortround6]

In WW2 the U.S. was able to produce ships at astonishing speed. Liberty ships were built on average every 42 days. One was built in a record 4 1/2 days. I think destroyers were built in about 10 months (I may be wrong on that). So how fast do you think the U.S. could build navy ships today if the need was dire compared to how long it normally takes?

What about aircraft? The U.S. was producing about 90 aircraft a day at its peak. The F-22 takes 2-4 months to make according to websites I see. How fast could those be turned around under the same scenario?

You can go to 3 shifts but 3 shifts do not actually produce 3 times the product.

Things are a lot more complicated. Both in parts number and it fit/finish. Granted a lot of machinery/tooling is better.

It took well over a year for many WW II factories to get up to speed, if you are making 10 planes a month getting up to 60 planes a month take not just more workers but more workers doing fewer different tasks each. More robotic type work, fewer different tasks.

And you have to coordinate everything. Hundreds if not thousands of subcontractors.

Trouble is modern warfare you may not get the time to build up production capacity. It took the US over 3 years to get up to even near full speed. We started in 1939/40, the whole bit about Pearl Harbor was a myth. You aren't going to get 2-3 years to tool up and get up to full production before the front line units are out of stuff.

 

[EwenS]

You cannot underestimate just how much working under wartime conditions, multiple shifts and 24 hours a day (under floodlights) uninterrupted by German bombing and without ever changing priorities and wartime shortages of labour & material, had on the US production effort.

Take an Essex class carrier. 27,000 tons.

Estimated build time when ordered in 1940 - 36 months
Essex completion moved forward from April 1944 to Jan 1944 by time of PH (3 months saved)
Essex actual completion Dec 1942. A saving of a further 13 months after the outbreak of war with Japan.

5 of the class laid down by PH (2 only the week before)
17 completed by VJ Day of which 14 saw action.
The average build time across the class in wartime was about 18-20 months with the fastest in about 15 months.

And the succeeding Midways - 45,000 tons. Midway and FDR built virtually wholly under wartime conditions, each built in 23 months to complete Sept/Oct 1945.

To put It in context Britain built the first 5 14,000 ton Colossus class 1942-45 with an average build time of 29 months with the fastest in 25 months.

Japan built the Taiho 30,000 tons in 36 months starting about the the same time as Essex. The succeeding 17,500 ton Unryu class took 22-24 months to build.

And as noted consider all the planning involved in bringing all the components involved, to the right place at the right time.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

On top of that regarding ships, nowadays we have far fewer foundries, fewer shipyards, and a smaller industrial workforce.

 

[Thorlifter]

Thanks for the input. True that a lot of the industries required have closed down and the laborers just don't exist in numbers. Time to get up to speed would be years.

 

[cvairwerks]

Thanks for the input. True that a lot of the industries required have closed down and the laborers just don't exist in numbers. Time to get up to speed would be years.

One other thing, is that some of the very specialized machinery is flat gone. One machine that really help production in the 50's all the way thru the 70's, were the ultra heavy presses.....We're talking 50,000 ton presses with a bed as big as a Class 8 truck. There is only one left in the US, and it's scheduled years out on parts runs. When it was discovered to have some major problems, there was a scramble to get new parts made and the press rebuilt.
A little history on the program that built the press:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ50nZU3oG8

 

[SaparotRob]

On top of that regarding ships, nowadays we have far fewer foundries, fewer shipyards, and a smaller industrial workforce.

Beat me to it. This is a fact that concerns me about China's intentions towards Taiwan. I once asked about any remaining Forrestal class carriers. Not to modernize into a more capable ship as that would require too much for too little in return. Those ships are tired. I was thinking as an emergency landing strip behind the lines. If there is one, is it even on the right coast (or left coast )? The Panama Canal couldn't handle one. The PLAN has way too many ship killing missiles for my taste. Some are going to get through. It takes a long time to build a CVN. There's a lack of shipways in the US. We have to order smaller warships and commercial ships from foreign suppliers.
These continuous drills the Chinese are carrying out worry me. They may lead to a bit of complacency. The next one, possibly cutting off Taiwan from resupply, would be a test of the Democracies will. With our current involvement with Ukraine (I'm for it, in case anyone is wondering) would we have the consensus to do what is necessary?
China is having economic difficulties at home. Isn't it a tried and true tactic of dictatorships to start a war to distract and rally the masses?
I'm paranoid. Am I paranoid enough?

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Beat me to it. This is a fact that concerns me about China's intentions towards Taiwan. I once asked about any remaining Forrestal class carriers. Not to modernize into a more capable ship as that would require too much for too little in return. Those ships are tired. I was thinking as an emergency landing strip behind the lines. If there is one, is it even on the right coast (or left coast )? The Panama Canal couldn't handle one. The PLAN has way too many ship killing missiles for my taste. Some are going to get through. It takes a long time to build a CVN. There's a lack of shipways in the US. We have to order smaller warships and commercial ships from foreign suppliers.
These continuous drills the Chinese are carrying out worry me. They may lead to a bit of complacency. The next one, possibly cutting off Taiwan from resupply, would be a test of the Democracies will. With our current involvement with Ukraine (I'm for it, in case anyone is wondering) would we have the consensus to do what is necessary?
China is having economic difficulties at home. Isn't it a tried and true tactic of dictatorships to start a war to distract and rally the masses?
I'm paranoid. Am I paranoid enough?

At least twice in the last couple of years in response to visits from Pelosi and McCarthy the Chinese have staged exercises including operations both naval and aerial off Taiwan's east coast. The message is plain, that if we, the US, wish to support Taiwan in war, we will have to fight through a blockade.

I think the best answer is continuing to support Ukraine to send the message that while we might not put troops on the ground we will fight autocracy. Even that might be weak given that we cannot resupply Taiwan overland; but too it should be considered that the Chinese historically prefer non-military solutions, that their inexperienced army would have to mount an amphibious assault -- the most difficult of all operations -- on a coast 80+ miles away, that their A2AD missiles haven't been tested real-world against active opponents, and that their ships and planes east of Taiwan might face problems of their own from our attack subs and air-groups.

There's no easy answer and I certainly don't think we should look to a walkover. Did you ever read that wargaming scenario that came out a few months ago on a scenario of China invading Taiwan and America and Japan responding militarily? There will be major casualties if this comes to pass. Probably better to deter China by demonstrating stiffness now, in Ukraine, is the way I read it.

 

[SaparotRob]

I did see the that scenario. That's what got me thinking about emergency flight decks. The ship building capacity ain't there and hauling out USS Lexington from museum status ain't never gonna cut it.
I agree that standing by Ukraine is not only correct but imperative. Xi must be really honked at Putin. The armaments factories are gearing up in the NATO countries.

 

[GrauGeist]

I did see the that scenario. That's what got me thinking about emergency flight decks. The ship building capacity ain't there and hauling out USS Lexington from museum status ain't never gonna cut it.
I agree that standing by Ukraine is not only correct but imperative. Xi must be really honked at Putin. The armaments factories are gearing up in the NATO countries.

We still have a ton of airstrips on islands in the Pacific region - several are inactive or nature preserves, but they are there.

 

[SaparotRob]

I am fond of the French Frigate Shoals.
Looks like an aircraft carrier.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

British Ministry of Supply, Rate of attainment of peak output after first delivery, report no 5. 11/313 notes it took around 18 months from first production to hitting peak output across a range of aircraft types. There are quite a few studies on the US and/or British aircraft industry in WWII. The Source Book of World War II Basic Data, Airframe Industry by USAAF Material Command has time cycle data, how many days from start of machine shop operations to acceptance, quarterly data from March 1943 to June 1945. Examples Boeing took 200 to 240 days for a B-17 for example, Douglas and Lockheed about half that for their B-17. Consolidated San Diego as low as 44 days for a B-24. Grumman 90 decreasing to 65 days for an F6F. Lockheed around the 150 day mark for a P-38, North American P-51 taking the same sort of time.

Liberty ships finished in January 1942 took an average of 241 days to build, that was steadily reduced until hitting 39 days in December 1943, moving back to around 60 or so days from mid 1944. The T2 tankers were taking about the same time in early 1942, dropping to an average 82 days in December 1944, then going back above 100 days in August 1945.

 

[SaparotRob]

That was then. This is now. How long from first machining to launch for a CVN? Where would it be built? Full disclosure: I have no idea how much slip space is available. This is what concerns me.

 

[cvairwerks]

Gerald R. Ford from keel laying to launch was 4 years. Won't be commissioned until late 2024. Plans for her started around 2010.

 

[EwenS]

At the moment there is only a single dry dock in the US building supercarriers. Newport News. They have 1 and a bit in build at any one time in it.

CVN-78 Gerald R Ford laid down 14/11/09. Iaunched 11/13. Commissioned 22/7/17

As first of new class she had a lot of new equipment that required bugs worked out. She finally sailed on her maiden deployment in Oct 2022.

CVN-79 John F Kennedy laid down 22/8/15. Christened 7/12/19. Due to enter service 2025.

CVN-80 Enterprise laid down 27/8/22. Scheduled for launch in 2025 for completion in 2028.

CVN-81 Doris Miller ordered 2019. To be laid down 1/26. Launch 10/29. Delivery 2032.

Talk now is of extending life of CVN-68 Nimitz & CVN-69 Eisenhower.

 

[SaparotRob]

That's what concerns me. The lack of slipways. Some ships are going to need repair and/or replacement. There are dry docks at Pearl Harbor but wii that be enough? Can Australia make up the difference? Go AUKUS.

 

[EwenS]

Towo different things here. Construction and refit/repair.

For more construction you need more orders. Not much call for nuclear powered supercarriers in the world. Build them faster you end up with gaps in work programmes. Workforce and/or skills then are lost. This happened in UK with SSN. Workforce and skills then took time to rebuild.

The tap cannot be turned on and off. Steady work flow required even if it does lengthen build times.

Same applies to other types. Usually only a single yard involved.

Refit / repair. I'll try to dig out some info about available dry docks later.